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Ask HN: Can someone explain these documentaries about USD or fiat money to me?

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11–16 of 16 posts

Re: Ask HN: Can someone explain these documentaries about USD or fiat money to me?

#11

There is nothing in these theories. If you want good information you don't go to youtube videos. There is a huge crossover between gold standard videos and a lot of other fringe and hate group ideas so I'd really suggest you don't watch them. Just the wiki article on the Gold standard is going to be much better https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard If you really want to understand read any editions of economics…

I'm not a gold-bug, but LIRP & ZIRP have been catastrophic for the economy. Theranos, Crypto, WeWork, Housing bubble, "big tech" i.e. advertising, Meta and it's 'verse', ridiculous VC ESG greenwashing, the list goes on. Meanwhile companies delivering value now have had to compete with these "growth" companies for capital, so they've gotta shrink margins for higher returns.

I agree most of these 'documentaries' are bunk, but there are legitimate criticisms of CB policy and the mainstream macroeconomics that advocate interest rate intervention. An equilibrium interest rate and its predictable boom-bust cycle honestly seems preferable to what we have now. You watch bloomberg and it seems like everyone and everything hangs on the next rate decision as if we were in a centrally planned economy. Wait a minute...

What I really want to know is how Greenspan went from writing 'Gold and Economic Freedom' to playing fast and loose with easy money.

Re: Ask HN: Can someone explain these documentaries about USD or fiat money to me?

#12

The central question here is "what is money". The general argument you are laying out is not some "crackpot theory", it is one alternative of how you can conceive of money. And in fact that conception of money is the one which has been dominant throughout nearly all of history. If you think of coins in history, they were valuable because they contained valuable materials, they had inherent value. This concept of a "g…

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Re: Ask HN: Can someone explain these documentaries about USD or fiat money to me?

#13
The existing responses are already covering the up-front question quite well, and they're even pointing out that there is crossover to much more obviously questionable stuff in the distribution channels where you find them.

On a more basic level, I generally require a documentary to present coherent ideas in a coherent way, and call me an egotist if you must, but if I come away from a documentary feeling like I'm not understanding an idea, I chalk that up to a failure on the part of the documentarian to present correctly, rather than a failure on my part to understand.

A failure, or in many cases, an attempt to exploit personal insecurities as a memetic vector for bad social ideas. If you can be made to feel a strong sense of mental inadequacy before a very complex system that is show real problems in the world, you are just a step away from being convinced that even worse ideas than those currently in play are somehow the solution, or at least, that enacting those ideas is less worse for you. Video art in the hands of skilled manipulators can help make entire nations do horrific things.

Re: Ask HN: Can someone explain these documentaries about USD or fiat money to me?

#14
post #7

Let's take a step back and go back to the three pillars of currency. The consensus is that for something to be a currency it needs to be: * a store of value * a medium of exchange * a unit of account You can stake another step back and say "what does value mean?" If a currency is "shells" then presumably it's that way because everyone values shells. If you don't value shells then the currency is worthless. In short,…

I like this comment a lot, but I think there is a lot more context inside “printing money” that goes into inflation and money supply in unexpected ways via debt. My rough and probably inaccurate understanding is that debt isn’t necessarily money a bank has on hand to provide you, but what a bank gives you can be created “out of thin air” depending on what the government wants to promote economically. Money can be pulled out of the economy entirely by increasing interest rates so that debt payments go up. In other words, this is very different to the war-time inflation of 80 years ago, and the government has a lot of extra levers to try to alleviate the the problems inflation can bring.

But the other side of it is that we’ve built our economy on the foundation that growth and inflation will always exist. All our retirement funds are in, say, index funds which rely on stocks to be worth significantly more in the future. Same for home property values. A business can only get investment and make their public investors happy if they continue to grow year after year. All of this only works if inflation exits in moderation.

The downside is our economy is not equipped to handle an equilibrium — what if we reach neutral or even negative population growth? What if automation makes more jobs unavailable? We’ll need to severely rethink how our economy works.

Re: Ask HN: Can someone explain these documentaries about USD or fiat money to me?

#15
> USD has become worthless ever since Nixon removed the gold standard in 1971.

This is verifiable by looking at inflation figures. But of course the question is was it caused by coming off the gold standard, and was coming off the gold standard a bad idea? I am not an economist or historian, so I don't know. I can see the argument for having "control" over your nation's money rather than rely on some fluctuating commodity. Also would a gold standard cause gold wars? On the other hand, if you peg to Gold, there is less scope for a nation to "cheat" it's citizens.

These films and in general the ideas, such as calling money "Fiat" as an insult, talking about creating money from thin air, and so on have been around for a long time. Often they leave out important details. Yes you create money from thin air when a bank lends you money. But they create equal credits and debits, take on risk, and need to fund the operations of the bank, and perhaps pay interest in an almost guaranteed way (with no guarantee of the loan being repaid). So the bank is providing a lot of value there, and is no different to a bakery creating bread out of ingredients and taking a profit.

I think I ready once that the inflationary effect of the new money is countered by the interest obligation, so it doesn't tend to lead to hyperinflation. And by setting the base rates, central banks can try to contain inflation.

I think it is a bad idea to keep money long term as cash. It is designed to lose value over time. I am sure I will lend my kids or grandkids a million dollars in the future. Not because I am rich. Maybe just enough to buy a car :-).

I kind of think you should see decent assets, as defined by your research, as "money" and dollars and cash as "a convenient but expensive tool to do trade with", if that makes sense.

Re: Ask HN: Can someone explain these documentaries about USD or fiat money to me?

#16

Those people want to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfinger_(film) when they grow up. The USD is backed by the "full faith and credit" of the US government which has the power to tax the productive capacity of our farms, mines, manufacturing, service and financial economy. Gold is limited in supply, I grant it that, but the existence of gold is not linked to the existence of productive capacity for anything else…

You're right in some places, but it's more complex than that.

Yes, the USD is backed by the "full faith and credit" of the US government but the Petrodollar's global reserve status is fading. Saudi and Russia are both gearing up to trade oil to China in Yuan, for example. America's debt has passed 100% of its GDP and it has entered a period of high inflation. If the BRICS countries introduce a common PM-backed currency, it could present a better store of value than dollars and that could mean the end of the dollar's good run.

> gold is not linked to the existence of productive capacity

Industrial demand and investment demand are two different things. Silver has high industrial demand but that doesn't make it any better or worse a choice than gold for backing a currency.

> The best argument against it is that there is not enough gold

I'm not sure that's an argument against it. Also maybe it could be silver, or a basket which includes both.

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