Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 292 posts

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#11

Post by tomg »

I’ve bounced around between frontend and backend and devops, plus some iOS and one Android project. I’ve hopped in and out of various languages/frameworks. For the past year or so I’ve been using elixir which is my first big functional language job, as an example.

I would not worry about job opportunities. Here’s why:

General problem-solving abilities (eg. breaking down work into smaller chunks of work until you have something actionable) translate well to all kinds of software.

Skills like being able to communicate well with other engineers, product folks, etc is also similar.

Also, tech moves fast. Even if I were to have stuck with only frontend work, that landscape has changed so much in 14 years it’s not like the way I built things in 2008 is the same as 2022. Which is to say that regardless of staying in one area or moving around, I’ve always had to keep learning new things. I think other areas are like this too, eg Apple coming out with new ways of doing things every few years; Android SDKs having major changes over time.

Maybe I’m just feeling preachy at the moment but follow what excites you :)

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#12

Post by intricatedetail »

nickjj wrote: post #4

Using React with an API back-end is only 1 of many choices. There's tools like Hotwire[0] and htmx[1] (both are back-end agnostic) that will let you create good old boring web apps with any back-end language where you don't need to write a ton of JS. You can sprinkle in front-end quality of life enhancements as needed to make nice feeling web apps with reasonably minimal complexity. [0]: https://hotwired.dev/ [1]: ht…

From my experience the more exotic frameworks are often pushed at smaller companies by developers hoping they'll be hard to replace whereas big companies use what s most popular to ensure they can find replacements easily.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#14

Post by alberth »

PHP.

Use PHP, it’s so crazy easy for web development.

- No compiling,

- no middleware,

- no state (which also means no memory leaks),

- just drop a file on web server and it works (no crazy CI pipeline),

- the documentation is fantastic,

- it’s extremely fast, and

- no surprises because it’s tried and true.

PHP is so under appreciated.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#15

Post by yrgulation »

alberth wrote: post #14

PHP. Use PHP, it’s so crazy easy for web development. - No compiling, - no middleware, - no state (which also means no memory leaks), - just drop a file on web server and it works (no crazy CI pipeline), - the documentation is fantastic, - it’s extremely fast, and - no surprises because it’s tried and true. PHP is so under appreciated.

The issue with php is the type of developers that use it and bloated frameworks. Nearly all developers still debate wether to use setters and getters and have no clue how to use the language itself, as a result using over engineered frameworks. The language itself is nice but is swamped by amateurs.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#16

Post by coffeefirst »

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for.

The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you try mobile app development, let me know, I've never tried but I doubt it's exempt.

Why does this happen? No idea, but it's not lost on me that a lot of these things are backed by huge companies with giant piles of money who are using them as marketing.

The only thing you can do (besides leave it all behind and open a taqueria) is be a voice for simplicity. What are we going to build? What tools make sense for it?

The problem I'm running into is a lot of people expect to use React in the same way many of us once relied on jquery. So if that's the case and we must use some React, what can I do to use it in the simplest and clearest way possible?

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#17

Post by yrgulation »

This stems from the fact that many in web dev are not really engineers. There’s a lot of reinventing the wheel and cult like following of various tech influencers. Instead of extending existing libraries people just fork repositories, add minor changes, and advertise them as new. A lot of architectural patterns are just a soup of concepts thrown around without proper planning or understanding of dry or solid.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#18

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

no such thing as frontend development. only full stack. and react for all the trillions of words written about it, what can you actually do with it? not much.

also it's over-saturated as hell. you think there's high demand, you're right, now try applying for a position and see how it goes.

there are two types of roles in modern web dev:

1 .90% of jobs are code monkey work: extremely saturated, you are competing with global workforce who will work for half your salary or less. i will get downvoted, probably cos there so many bootcampers and others who don't like to hear this reality.

2. 10% of jobs at top tier tech companies that pay the top salaries. good luck with the 10 stage interviews, aptitude exam, leetcoding and then getting ghosted.

the complexity itself just comes from the amount of steps required to do something trivial:

2010 edit an html button:

1. pull the file from ftp or sourcesafe/svn

2. edit the button

3. upload to ftp

2020 edit an html button:

1. install git

2. install npm, node

3. clone and install the code

4. deal with myriad node js errors

5. deal with myriad deprecation warnings and other issues in npm

6. start local environment

6.1 local requires docker

6.2 install docker

6.3 try to start docker

7. docker requires sudo

8. request sudo from IT

9. fill a form explaining why you need sudo

10. install docker

11. start the local environment

12. edit the html button

13. local server not refreshing

14. fix local tooling issues

15. commit changes

16. your changes are 10 commits behind the branch

17. try to merge automatically, cannot be merged

18. make a PR

19. smug know it all "senior" developer with 2 years experiences, gives a bunch of nitpicky comments on the PR and refuses to merge it

20. go back to step 6

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#19

Post by pcurve »

Amen. I would even say the same thing about UI/UX design, with tight coupling with react components with naming conventions and tokens. Overly complex design systems.

It all sounds great in theory, but it comes with so many baggage, and only tends to work in certain SV type companies.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#20

Post by yrgulation »

xd wrote: post #8

I bumped into an old friend recently and he and his wife work at a real estate company. They were raving about this new system they are a couple of years into the development of and how it's built on this great "Kubernetes" system.. they asked what I develop my products with and I almost felt embarrassed to say PHP and a couple of servers in two locations for redundancy that run Archlinux with a LAMP (LNMP? I guess w…

Thing is if you understand php you dont really need a framework. Sure composer packages are a must to avoid rewriting whats out there, but a framework not so much. When i conducted interviews i was shocked at how many php devs had no clue about what an sql injection is, they almost all answered “the framework does it for you” and it was such a basic thing.
Post reply on HN