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Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

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Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#11

Post by superchroma »

smt88 wrote: post #2

Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. Universal basic utilities wouldn't work because it would need to be means-tested, and that's not easy to do. A household with $0 of income might have a secret $100M fortune somewhere. Should they get free electricity? It makes much more sense to have affordable utilities and just give people cash. If they want to use 10% of the elect…

Well, in socialized healthcare, you have some procedures which are covered, and then some, like cosmetic surgery, which aren't. An equivalent to that for power would be to cook up a baseline kWh usage for a household, maybe something that is a function correlated to the number of residents, and then charge for every kWh above that.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#12

Post by superchroma »

trinovantes wrote: post #3

Same reason why universal health care is controversial: "I don't use as much as them, why should I pay for their use?"

In healthcare it's different, as, conceptually, at least, it's in all of our interests to be healthy, and being less healthy usually isn't just a comfort matter; discomfort in the health sphere usually signals greater health problems in the future.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#13

Post by xupybd »

superchroma wrote: post #11
smt88 wrote: post #2

Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. Universal basic utilities wouldn't work because it would need to be means-tested, and that's not easy to do. A household with $0 of income might have a secret $100M fortune somewhere. Should they get free electricity? It makes much more sense to have affordable utilities and just give people cash. If they want to use 10% of the elect…

Well, in socialized healthcare, you have some procedures which are covered, and then some, like cosmetic surgery, which aren't. An equivalent to that for power would be to cook up a baseline kWh usage for a household, maybe something that is a function correlated to the number of residents, and then charge for every kWh above that.

Here in NZ my fathers cancer treatment was not covered. He spent most of his savings buying an extra year. It was scheduled for funding but Covid took that budget so it's been delayed.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#14

Post by xupybd »

Why do you want the government to run these basic utilities? Is it that you want more people to be able to access them? Is it that you think the government would be more efficient at running them?

It's interesting to see what people are trying to optimize for they suggest different political systems.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#15

Post by xupybd »

version_five wrote: post #6
smt88 wrote: post #2

Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. Universal basic utilities wouldn't work because it would need to be means-tested, and that's not easy to do. A household with $0 of income might have a secret $100M fortune somewhere. Should they get free electricity? It makes much more sense to have affordable utilities and just give people cash. If they want to use 10% of the elect…

> Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. I'm canadian and our universal healthcare system sucks. It's very controversial here. Universal often means universally bad - picture your typical interaction with the government bureaucracy and imagine that for something important. It's the same reason you wouldn't want government run utilities (which Canada also has)

I'm in NZ and our universal healthcare system sucks too.

For example don't have a medical emergency here. You'll wait more than 8 hours to get seen.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-all-nz-hospitals-failin...

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#16

Post by mwachs »

version_five wrote: post #6
smt88 wrote: post #2

Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. Universal basic utilities wouldn't work because it would need to be means-tested, and that's not easy to do. A household with $0 of income might have a secret $100M fortune somewhere. Should they get free electricity? It makes much more sense to have affordable utilities and just give people cash. If they want to use 10% of the elect…

> Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. I'm canadian and our universal healthcare system sucks. It's very controversial here. Universal often means universally bad - picture your typical interaction with the government bureaucracy and imagine that for something important. It's the same reason you wouldn't want government run utilities (which Canada also has)

I doubt 66% of people insured in the US by their private system are satisfied. https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/canadians-largely-sat...

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#17

Post by BMc2020 »

I sense you're looking for a more fundamental answer.

In any society, whether it's a tiny island tribe or a giant nation-state, there is a faction who like things just the way they are and don't want them to change. These are 'the powerful'.

Then there is another faction who want change but don't have the power, and they live in a permanent state of tension with the powerful.

In poli sci I recall it being called the problem of the reformers versus the careerists. But you can call it the young versus the old, the radicals versus the traditionalists, the revolutionaries versus the royalists.

The people at the top of the hill will fight change, because every direction from the top is down.

If you live long enough you'll typically switch sides once you've decided you have gotten all the change you're going to get and start trying to keep what you have (part way up the hill) instead.

It's not too different from a pride of lions. The king of the pride got there by being the strongest, he has it pretty good for a while but eventually he starts getting older and weaker while the younger lions keep getting bigger and stronger.

TL:DR you get power by fighting for it, you keep power by fighting for it.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#19

Post by ta8645 »

mysterydip wrote: post #8
superchroma wrote: post #7

It could. You could establish a baseline and then have people pay an excess, or just cover it all. Probably only the former is viable. In the latter case, such a tax doesn't discourage heavy users, it's a lot easier to abuse things when you don't have a direct correlation for how much it's costing; why not have a 1 hour shower? It's only 0.0001c to the taxpayer, and you've had a hard day! Comparatively, if you have t…

> there'll still be a 1% who does because money is nothing to them I recently heard someone well off describe fines like parking as "the cost to park here".

Some countries set fines based on the individual's income level, to dissuade this attitude.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#20

Post by datavirtue »

mwachs wrote: post #16
version_five wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. I'm canadian and our universal healthcare system sucks. It's very controversial here. Universal often means universally bad - picture your typical interaction with the government bureaucracy and imagine that for something important. It's the same reason you wouldn't want government run utilities (which Canada also has)

I doubt 66% of people insured in the US by their private system are satisfied. https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/canadians-largely-sat...

Be real here. No one needs the dystopian demeanor of the BMV when they are facing a health issue.

There is a lot of room for improvement in our current system but the quality of our healthcare facilities and professionals is pretty damn good in the US.

I wish the system would get out of their way and let them work.

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