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Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

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Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#11

Post by Bud »

I've lived in CA for 22 years, just moved away, and have studied German language and culture and music for all my life and have visited several times. So I guess I can speak fairly well to this.

Overall, it pains me to say this, but I'd have to choose Germany. Climate change impacts in California are already significant (wildfire smoke, water shortages, power grid issues), and are going to get a lot worse. Yes, the income will be higher in California, but so will the cost of living, especially the part about trying to buy a decent house, which is essential for long-term financial stability. You don't want to deal with the random capricious rent increases in the Bay Area, that I can tell you. And you don't want to deal with being constantly hassled and lorded over by some landlord. That's no way to raise a family.

Germany has superior social programs, a real health care system, seems less likely to be taken over by a fascist government (at least in the near-term), vastly superior support for education and the arts, no gun nuts, and doesn't have a government crippled by Mitch McConnell. People actually care about the well-being of the entire society, there. The mass transit is, well, legendary.

I think it's a very good bet that your overall quality of life will be superior in Germany.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#13

Post by ocius »

I'm a Software Engineer from Germany, living in Switzerland and Germany.

Working in tech you'll have more than enough to live a very good life in Germany. While the absolute amount may not be as much as in the US, the amount relative to the average person will still be very good, particularly if you choose to live in the countryside, but also if you choose to live in the city.

Quality of life is very similar to Amsterdam / Netherlands, so you don't have to expect huge differences there. Bavaria is a bit more on the traditional side, and you might actually notice that (e.g. shops close very early / not at all on Sundays). While shops in Germany are generally closed on Sundays, they are open late in many of the other states (10pm, or even 12pm in the cities).

Career prospects are good to very good, particularly in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg (neighboring states), which are the most prosperous states in Germany. In the countryside, you may have to resort to Home Office or working in a Mittelstand Unternehmen, though. Most larger cities have a small startup culture if that is your thing.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#14

Post by elevanation »

Bavaria, for the following reasons, IMHO:

1. Family in a quality German rural setting: Over the long term, healthy and functional family relationships are meaningful source of fulfillment, and make everything else in your life just a little bit easier. In combination with the quality rural life in many areas of Germany, it is a healthy foundation for friends, family, and children.

2. A geographically independent career: Depending on your career choices, and if money is a priority for you, you can make great money while being geographically independent. There are many different ways to accomplish this depending on how much time/effort you wish you invest, and which options you would consider.

3. Quality of life: While I am generalizing here, IMHO, the quality of friendships, family, and social connections is better in Bavaria than California. Of course this depends on your exact situation, which street you are living on, where your family & friends live, the social infrastructure of the town, etc etc.

4. Better health and safety in Bavaria: as can be found in public statistics.

5. Social development for children in Germany: For the most part, I find the quality of the social upbringing and education system in Bavaria better than California (again, generalizing, as there are bad and good patches anywhere). Speak with a few high school graduates from California and from Bavaria, and note your observations. For example I observe: How mature are they as young adults? How well-adjusted are they? How grounded do they seem?

Background: I am a career mentor with long-term US and German experience.

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#16

Post by mucio »

Move to Germany. Probably you had to move a bit earlier for you to enjoy the full parental leave here, but grandparents will be a great support.

Do not worry much about the small village, actually use the opportunity (lower costs) to invest in your German (learn as much as you can with classes and talking with the people around you).

Quality of life in Germany is much better than in the USA. Kita places are hard to find in Berlin, but you will be probably more lucky in a small town.

When you daughter will be 6 she will start school, and in Germany kids cannot skips school days, so you will be forced to stay put except for the short holidays during the year (when everybody is travelling too), my suggestion is to see Bavaria as a starting point to visit Italy, Austria, Germany and other countries around (at least for the first years).

Regarding careers as SWE you both should not have any problem. Worst case scenario they will require you to go to the office for a couple of days once the pandemic is finished, but it will be quite hard to enforce that :)

Also your kids will not do shooters drills in school

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#17

Post by zeroego »

I'd like to echo what the other commenters said when they say consider the education of your kids. I'm from the US, but student taught in Germany while I studied abroad. The quality of the education and the sheer amount of resources Germany gives its youth is something to be admired. They will receive a quality education, have recess, and have extra curricular activities that are holistically incorporated into their education. They will not have standardized tests shoved down their throats from a young age (though there are standardized tests in Germany but their purpose and implementation is much different), active shooter drills, and lack of resources (think school counselors, textbooks, food, extra curricular activities).

My experience is based off of working in 4 different schools in the Berlin area over the course of 6 months, so my experience in limited. German society is far from perfect, there are many valid criticisms of how they do things there. But, having experienced both the US and Germany there is almost no comparison in terms of how young people are brought up.

As far as your salary goes, I hear you. I'd like to return to Germany, but know I'll make far more money in the USA. I have heard that senior devs in Berlin can crack the 100k euro mark, though there are taxes to consider. I would still say it's worth it. You will have time to spend with your kids, you won't be worked to death, you'll be seen as a human being and not simply a cog. There are some exceptions to that, some German companies genuinely suck while some US companies are great with their work/life balance. But, your chances of finding a healthy balance will be much higher in Germany. Best of luck to you!

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#18

Post by Fr3dd1 »

I am myself a software engineer / team lead in germany ("near" cologne).

A lot of what you said is correct I guess. In the US your potentially salary is a lot higher. Although if you plan to move to germany, bavaria is a good spot. Salary there is (at least what I know), higher than in the rest of the country.

One thing that I would add to the equation is job safety. In germany you have a pretty high job safety and it is especially hard to get someone out of the job.

But maybe you get both, a living near your wifes family and the support and a good paid remote job in some big US corp (if you prefer that).

Re: Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?

#20

Post by relaunched »

Find a remote job with a major tech company / startup. Then, move to Germany. There is very little reason to trade location for salary in this day and age, especially with the hunt for talent and the movement to work remotely.

I'm from California and once I got out of it and saw other places, I realize it isn't all it's cracked up to be, nor is it worth the additional cost.

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