So then if Russia continues to invade Ukraine anyway, what is the EU going to do?
Is it going to fight Russia?
That leads to nuclear war.
Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
11–20 of 30 posts
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#12I'm not sure that's the play. They don't need land, they need balls (i.e. if the Russians continue then fundamentally detach them from the modern world). On a tactical level they probably already have more than enough breathing room to be able to mobilize (which I would imagine the US has already done) every information gathering asset in the region to provide Intel to the Ukrainian troops. As far as I'm aware there…
I am not saying from defensive posture -but from a posture to prevent further escalation and aggression. Russia is able to do what it does is simply because it thinks it can get away with it. It is not fair - so ring fencing at the cheapest cost to force NATO to trigger Article V will give pause. will Russia cross the red line?
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#13Short answer: that's not how borders work.
not the border, i mean arbitrary land, say 50 miles, along the border.
For a simple sale/loan the land would remain Ukrainean.
Just like if an American buys a house in Russia, it won't mean now that USA can militarily defend it.
Every piece of land has actually two owners: the sovereign nation and the civilian/company "owning it" as understood in regular speech.
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#14So then if Russia continues to invade Ukraine anyway, what is the EU going to do? Is it going to fight Russia? That leads to nuclear war.
what is EU going to do if Russia invades Poland anyway? Thermonuclear war? Are you saying the whole security apparatus and international institutions are all bluff? If so, Russia would have figured out the bluff by now.
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#15I think while Russia thinks creatively, the other side thinks linearly. Spain, UK, France or Poland should buy the land and poke a finger at the aggressor - just a thought.
I don't understand how Russia is thinking creatively here. If Ukraine resistance keeps up there's no way Russia has the will or money to maintain an occupation. What has been gained in this invasion?
Europe has been woken up to it's need to spend more on defense.
Ukrainians have been hardened against Russia.
NATO was given a chance to show it's worth
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
not the border, i mean arbitrary land, say 50 miles, along the border.
For a simple sale/loan the land would remain Ukrainean. Just like if an American buys a house in Russia, it won't mean now that USA can militarily defend it. Every piece of land has actually two owners: the sovereign nation and the civilian/company "owning it" as understood in regular speech.
You are confusing an individual from a sovereign state. If a state buys it, it belongs to the state where the constitution protections are enforced.
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
not the border, i mean arbitrary land, say 50 miles, along the border.
For a simple sale/loan the land would remain Ukrainean. Just like if an American buys a house in Russia, it won't mean now that USA can militarily defend it. Every piece of land has actually two owners: the sovereign nation and the civilian/company "owning it" as understood in regular speech.
Yeah, 2 owners like Guantanamo? Ukraine can relinquish control for a known time, even a year. Russia would dare not start war by crossing another country.
If there is no will to defend, there is no solution.
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#18So then if Russia continues to invade Ukraine anyway, what is the EU going to do? Is it going to fight Russia? That leads to nuclear war.
what is EU going to do if Russia invades Poland anyway? Thermonuclear war? Are you saying the whole security apparatus and international institutions are all bluff? If so, Russia would have figured out the bluff by now.
Nuclear deterrence doesn't mean that France would retaliate with nuclear weapons to a conventional attack, but that French nuclear weapons make it unlikely, not worth it, for Russia to use its own weapons first.
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#19So then if Russia continues to invade Ukraine anyway, what is the EU going to do? Is it going to fight Russia? That leads to nuclear war.
If you accept that MAD only goes one way because one side doesn't care why can't that side conquer and rule the entire world after all for each nation the others nations plight is less than existential so they ought by that reckoning accept each nations plight until it is their turn.
Even when invaded being conquered represents a lesser loss than being blown up so one would logically either preemptively accept defeat or at least withhold your nukes while the enemy grinds you down using traditional means.
It would seem vastly more rational to work together to destroy the aggressor. If you really think current leadership will nuke you rather than be defeated then remove that leadership and see if the next leadership feels the same way.
Will we allow Putin to murder Ukraine, then Finland, then Sweden, then what? How many other lives is one mans life worth?
Re: Ask HN: Can't Ukraine lease/sell border land to EU temporarily
#20I'm not sure that's the play. They don't need land, they need balls (i.e. if the Russians continue then fundamentally detach them from the modern world). On a tactical level they probably already have more than enough breathing room to be able to mobilize (which I would imagine the US has already done) every information gathering asset in the region to provide Intel to the Ukrainian troops. As far as I'm aware there…
I am not saying from defensive posture -but from a posture to prevent further escalation and aggression. Russia is able to do what it does is simply because it thinks it can get away with it. It is not fair - so ring fencing at the cheapest cost to force NATO to trigger Article V will give pause. will Russia cross the red line?
> will Russia cross the red line?
Who knows ? And, furthermore, who will take the bet ?