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Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

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Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#11
I think that in order to increase privacy and - more importantly - reduce the attack surface of a Web Browser more efficiently, there will have to be two modes of web browsing.

Regular browsing - in my opinion - should default to privacy and security first, whereas trust to web apps should be granted on a per-domain basis. This is basically what I'm doing in a crappy manner in Chromium and Firefox, where I have all my Browser Extensions in regular browsing mode with uBlock Origin, Cookie Autodelete and whatnot... and where I use Incognito Mode to use Web Apps.

Additionally, I believe that a Web Browser that's decentralized has an almost infinite amount of advantages when it comes to bypassing censorship, increasing trust and the ledging aspect of (temporary) online resources.

My idea of building a sane architecture of a Web Browser is that the Browser itself is actually a locally running peer-to-peer web scraper service, and the "frontend or GUI" is a bundled webview that's pointing to localhost:someport. Web Apps can then be used by spawning a new webview instance that's sandboxed with its profile in a temporary folder, so it cannot infect/spread across the regular profile folder that's being used for the "regular private browsing" mode.

This architecture allows all kinds of benefits, as everything can be filtered, cleaned, verified (, and shared with other peers) at the network level before it reaches the webview - whereas Browser Extensions currently cannot filter any HTTP responses because there's no API for that.

AdBlockers currently are based on a disallow-list based concept, which means the advantage is always on the advertising side, and by default nothing is filtered; and scammers/blackhats have always the advantage. Once you add it to a filter list, lots of people's machines have been compromised already. But what if AdBlockers change instead to an allow-list based concept - meaning that the Browser maintains a list of resources that are allowed to load per-domain, and the default being just text and images?

If you want to take a look at where it's at right now [1] [2], my Browser is open source; and I hope to fund development via a access fees for a peer-to-peer "Knowledge Tracker" that allows to share automations for the web with other peers, aka macros, reader-mode like extraction beacons, and other awesome treats (p2p search and recommendations are basically included in this concept).

[1] https://github.com/tholian-network/stealth

[2] https://github.com/tholian-network/retrokit

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#13

Not to sidetrack your topic of discussion, which I think is interesting, but I think it's an unfortunate misconception when people try to cast browsers as being intended to merely display documents. Hypermedia in general is a very old concept, dating back to the 60s, and it was never intended to be limited to merely documents. Audio/visual and interactive applications were inherent in the design of some of the earlie…

I didn't state that the document can't have audio or video or whatever. I am just sceptical when I see someone sending over the browser some wasm for singal processing or for rendering a video game. Don't get me wrong I think it's is useful but I am really worried that people are basically overcomplicate things with hacks on top of hacks instead of someone saying f#@k it we need a different approach.

My problem is that when I want to do some simple web app the industry standard is to have all these abstraction levels, this makes me think that maybe we are building on the wrong fundamentals. And people instead of refactoring the browser they make more abstractions/hacks on each other.

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#14
It would come with options for the user to select font/size/colors for various well-defined elements like head-lines, new links, previously visit links, external links. It would be easy and convenient for the user to configure their preferred formatting of the text (width, line break behaviour, justification).

It would not allow client-side execution of any kind, it would not allow any kind of styling of the content, only describe what the content is, not how it should be presented.

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#15
I would separate the app-rendering and document-rendering, but in a composable way. Document-rendering would be much like reader-mode today where the browser applies a lot of styles to make the text beautiful and readable based on the user's preferences. App-rendering would have incredibly consistent default styles (such as no margins, no padding, no underline on links). Basically I feel that browser default styles are ugly because they are afraid to break the "app-rending". I think separating these would allow the browser to make document-rendering much nice. I wrote a blog post with more detail. https://kevincox.ca/2021/07/14/chrome-and-content-modes-in-h...

On the other side can a major browser fix keyboard shortcuts. I want 1. User controllable keyboard shortcuts. (Ideally with some sort of scripting or macro system) 2. Don't allow websites to override important browser shortcuts. Why can't I open my history when looking at a Google Doc?!

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#16

Split the browser into two separate platforms, for apps and for interactive documents. The app platform should focus on covering app scenarios, but with better privacy protection mechanisms. The document platform should focus on hypertext and not feature scripting, but there should be features built in for handling live refreshing feeds of content. Of course nobody would ever want to use the document platform since y…

I think you can't just split. I think you need to be able to nest both. For example a lot of sites will want a styled header for "branding" and will refuse to use "document mode" if they can't have that, so they will render their whole site in "app mode" which is basically the same today. So I think you need to let them render their header in "app mode" and the text in "document mode" and even embed a little game/tweet/calculator that is in "app mode" inside the document.

Basically your last paragraph. I think if we want to let people use the document mode we can't lock them into a restricted environment. Instead provide them a better user experience that they can opt out of at any point when they need to. Otherwise the first limitation and they will throw the whole thing away.

Unfortunately this means that scripting will still be available everywhere, but I actually think that is fine. I know scripting can be used for evil but it also can produce great experiences when applied lightly in the correct places.

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#17
post #13

Not to sidetrack your topic of discussion, which I think is interesting, but I think it's an unfortunate misconception when people try to cast browsers as being intended to merely display documents. Hypermedia in general is a very old concept, dating back to the 60s, and it was never intended to be limited to merely documents. Audio/visual and interactive applications were inherent in the design of some of the earlie…

I didn't state that the document can't have audio or video or whatever. I am just sceptical when I see someone sending over the browser some wasm for singal processing or for rendering a video game. Don't get me wrong I think it's is useful but I am really worried that people are basically overcomplicate things with hacks on top of hacks instead of someone saying f#@k it we need a different approach. My problem is th…

The industry standards are meant for businesses coordinating teams and building sites meant to scale to multiple millions of users. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you do any of that for a simple web app.

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#18

I think we should treat web "sites" and web "apps" as two distinct things... Because they are two distinct things.

They aren't, though.

The number of "apps" which attempt to mimic a native application like Photopea are miniscule, as are the number of purely static HTML based sites. Most of the web combines both paradigms in ways that aren't easily separable.

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#19

Split the browser into two separate platforms, for apps and for interactive documents. The app platform should focus on covering app scenarios, but with better privacy protection mechanisms. The document platform should focus on hypertext and not feature scripting, but there should be features built in for handling live refreshing feeds of content. Of course nobody would ever want to use the document platform since y…

I think you can't just split. I think you need to be able to nest both. For example a lot of sites will want a styled header for "branding" and will refuse to use "document mode" if they can't have that, so they will render their whole site in "app mode" which is basically the same today. So I think you need to let them render their header in "app mode" and the text in "document mode" and even embed a little game/twe…

Sounds a lot like what we had with Flash. Maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Re: Ask HN: How you would redesign a web browser?

#20
1. Remove legacy HTML support. HTML should become a format agnostic DOM. Without any scope of inline style or scripting. So even a markdown document could possibly be natively rendered albeit with limited element support

2. Styling should be done exclusively out of band. CSS is a great tool, but a massive decluttering is required. Native can also be a supported styling option.

3. Same out of band scripting. JS is fine. Support can become language agnostic. wasm and others will come under this.

In conclusion the browser should become a decoupled selectable network of Markup, Styling and Scrpting. So when the developer wants they can style the components with native android widgets or canvas and when they want they can write the business logic in Swift or Rust or Dart

I see browser as a framework provider for native apps with prebaked features like assessibility, multiple input devices, sandboxing, etc

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