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Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

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Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#11

Post by WorkLobster »

spacephysics wrote: post #2

Why should we hire anyone based off the color of their skin/gender, versus for their level of competency? If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. Further, isn’t it a bit patronizing hiring people because they fit in a URM group, instead of hard work to sufficiently pass an interview/test/etc?

I see the misunderstanding that D&I is about priority hiring based on certain characteristics over and above merit crop up a distressing amount. Every initiative that I have taken part in has explicitly abjured such action; it's illegal in our country and in any case arguably a bad idea anywhere. What it is instead is a forum for trying to identify, discuss and address where existing pratices are unwittingly biased.

For example, do the statistics of progression and departure in our organisation show any areas in which we're failing certain subgroups? Does our publicity reach everyone we want it to and carry the message that we intend? Do our processes inadvertently cause physical or mental difficulty to anyone?

Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#12

Post by anyonecancode »

The way I think of this topic is that diversity should be a metric, not a goal. If the overwhelming majority of the people I'm interviewing, hiring, and working with look like me, then I have to ask, are these really the most qualified people? I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of talent being overlooked and missed and my company is missing out here. Which one is more likely?

That re-framing is the easy part, of course. Actually making changes is hard. On one side we all know that if you make something a metric you run the danger of making it a goal, but on the other side the biases that lead to a lack of diversity are so deep and ingrained they can be very difficult to counter.

But hopefully this re-framing is at least helpful in explaining why a lack of diversity is an issue that matters.

Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#14

Post by CobraKing »

CobraKing wrote: post #8
spacephysics wrote: post #2

Why should we hire anyone based off the color of their skin/gender, versus for their level of competency? If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. Further, isn’t it a bit patronizing hiring people because they fit in a URM group, instead of hard work to sufficiently pass an interview/test/etc?

all things considered (i.e. equal performance on an interview/test/etc.) it makes better economic sense to hire more women and URMs. A cynic would say that's because it's more acceptable to pay less. But I would argue that someone who has built a successful career despite the headwinds of racism/sexism/implicit biases is going to be tougher and more resilient in the face of unexpected challenges than someone, who for…

also, I want to share that OP's original point reflects common hiring practice at my former employer, which is a federal Minority-Serving Institution (MSI) in the South (i.e. majority of students are first-generation college, immigrants, people of color) whose faculty is overwhelmingly white and predominantly male. The diversity hires, that I was aware of, tended to favor White and "model minority" candidates over equally (or better qualified) URM candidates, even though it's obvious that the students would be better served by hiring more professors that reflect the demographics of the student body. There are plenty of highly qualified candidates these days, so to me the biggest problem is bias on the part of many hiring and tenure committees.

Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#15

Post by superbcarrot »

anyonecancode wrote: post #12

The way I think of this topic is that diversity should be a metric, not a goal. If the overwhelming majority of the people I'm interviewing, hiring, and working with look like me, then I have to ask, are these really the most qualified people? I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of tale…

> I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of talent being overlooked and missed and my company is missing out here.

The third and more likely option is that you're sampling from a population that looks mostly like you. If software developers are 90% male and men and women are equally competent, you should still expect to hire 9 times more men than women even if you could pick the best candidates every time.

Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#16

Post by AndrewDucker »

spacephysics wrote: post #2

Why should we hire anyone based off the color of their skin/gender, versus for their level of competency? If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. Further, isn’t it a bit patronizing hiring people because they fit in a URM group, instead of hard work to sufficiently pass an interview/test/etc?

Actually, the companies that have made sure they use people from more than one subset of the population have better financial results.

https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inc...

Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#17

Post by threatofrain »

anyonecancode wrote: post #12

The way I think of this topic is that diversity should be a metric, not a goal. If the overwhelming majority of the people I'm interviewing, hiring, and working with look like me, then I have to ask, are these really the most qualified people? I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of tale…

Why should it be a metric if it's not part of our goals? The problem is there is no language for negotiating the relative weight of values.

For example, how should business success weigh against the social justice problem of black access to technological opportunity?

Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#19

Post by [deleted] »

anyonecancode wrote: post #12

The way I think of this topic is that diversity should be a metric, not a goal. If the overwhelming majority of the people I'm interviewing, hiring, and working with look like me, then I have to ask, are these really the most qualified people? I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of tale…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?

#20

Post by stan_lorl »

In the EU country I come frome, at least two forms of affirmative action are part of employment law.

1) At least 2.5% of the workforce (rounded down) in workplaces not physically demanding must be disabled, or the company pays some taxes. This has resulted in creating job positions that would otherwise be outsourced, in one company I worked in.

Not a bad thing I guess, but the percentage should really be adjusted downwards in 2021.

2) Veterans (a very large group) should be given preference when equally qualified. This does not affect the ordinary software engineers much, but does have implications in management. It is also impossible to fire a veteran. This was one of the factors that created extremely negative perceptions about veterans in the educated sectors of the society.

As for the US forms of affirmative action, I haven't seen that yet in companies I worked in. But we don't have such a skewed gender representation in STEM as the US has, and in 2021 the minorities who work have equal or greater income than the national average.

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