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Ask HN: Is there software for building software?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there software for building software?

#11

We're working on a framework we hope to expose to our customers for just this purpose. It'll be made up of modules you can add and a GUI for field/form customisation. A bit like Microsoft Access but web based, is that what you had in mind?

Somewhat, but easier to use than Access. I was thinking that after learning the tool, the end-user should be able to create a basic CRUD application with one or more workflows/screens in a few hours, tops.

Do you have any information about your framework? I'm interested to know more.

Re: Ask HN: Is there software for building software?

#12
post #4
post #2

What kind of applications do you want to be able to build with such a tool?

I was thinking about basic CRUD applications to start. I think it would be valuable for a business to be able to build a small, basic CRUD application to manage certain processes like QA, or any other basic data-keeping that's needed - in situations where ready-made products just don't fit the bill.

If you're in the Windows world, Microsoft Access would really be the best choice for that sort of situation.

Re: Ask HN: Is there software for building software?

#13
post #4
post #2

What kind of applications do you want to be able to build with such a tool?

I was thinking about basic CRUD applications to start. I think it would be valuable for a business to be able to build a small, basic CRUD application to manage certain processes like QA, or any other basic data-keeping that's needed - in situations where ready-made products just don't fit the bill.

Microsoft Access is probably the best fit for you.

However, beware the danger of ending up with your business fundamentally built on Access. Many products make it easy to program, there is no product that makes programming easy. Just underneath the candy shell, the horrifying Turing chaos waits for you the same as any "real" programming environment, and many is the person who has inadvertently released an Elder God from his tasty confectionery prison to consume their business whole.

I'm being a bit flowery, but I am serious. It's happened many times and I've seen it myself once. Use the tool responsibly; the poky bits haven't been taken out, just moved around a bit.

Re: Ask HN: Is there software for building software?

#14
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about basic CRUD applications to start. I think it would be valuable for a business to be able to build a small, basic CRUD application to manage certain processes like QA, or any other basic data-keeping that's needed - in situations where ready-made products just don't fit the bill.

Business-oriented databases generally have this kind of feature. I believe both MS Access and FileMaker have drag-and-drop-style form builders allowing a non-programmer to create a purpose-built user interface to query and update the database.

Yeah Access was the closest think I could think of. But for what I'm picturing, that's too complicated - I don't want the end-user to see or think about the database at all. The end-user should basically drop and drag things, then click a button that says "create application" and it spits out your app.

Re: Ask HN: Is there software for building software?

#17
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business-oriented databases generally have this kind of feature. I believe both MS Access and FileMaker have drag-and-drop-style form builders allowing a non-programmer to create a purpose-built user interface to query and update the database.

Yeah Access was the closest think I could think of. But for what I'm picturing, that's too complicated - I don't want the end-user to see or think about the database at all. The end-user should basically drop and drag things, then click a button that says "create application" and it spits out your app.

The name for the activity you describe is programming. Just because you've not typing lines of code doesn't mean you're not programming.

Meanwhile, you need to think about why people like spreadsheets. Yes, they show you all your data on a big stupid sheet and force you to look at it, but that's a feature, not a bug. People don't collect data because pressing buttons is fun. They want to see their data again. Indeed, not being able to relocate their hard-won data is their worst nightmare, so it is reassuring to see it right there and know that you can find it. It's easy to find data in a spreadsheet: Just scroll around until you see it. It's got to be right there on the page: It's a spreadsheet. Even a nonprogrammer can navigate a simple spreadsheet.

It's even easy to change the data. You see a number you don't like, you type over it.

If you want something with better organization or navigation than a simple spreadsheet, you'll need, at the very least: Forms to type the data in, and reports to get the data out. But presumably your forms will need carefully-chosen field types, and validation against app-specific criteria, and maybe even record-to-record relations, or why wouldn't you just use a spreadsheet? And the reports will have to be fancier than just a big table, or why wouldn't you just use a spreadsheet? And when you design these forms and records and relations and reports... you'll be programming.

Re: Ask HN: Is there software for building software?

#18
post #4
post #2

What kind of applications do you want to be able to build with such a tool?

I was thinking about basic CRUD applications to start. I think it would be valuable for a business to be able to build a small, basic CRUD application to manage certain processes like QA, or any other basic data-keeping that's needed - in situations where ready-made products just don't fit the bill.

I'm afraid there are no shortcuts in this business. Programmers/developers are hugely undervalued because people without similar skills have no idea just how difficult it is to build systems.

You should hire someone smart to do this work for you, instead of trying to do it by yourself. Given that your requirements are vague, I would recommend you pay someone a few hundred quid/dollars to talk to you for a day and figure out what technology you're going to need to use. Then you will be in a good position to hire.

If you try and do this by yourself there is a very high chance you will do it wrong. Worst case scenario is that you don't even know it's wrong and it just keeps giving you the wrong data forever.

I worked with an insurance client once who had been overpaying bonuses for years without knowing. You don't want to be that person - hire a programmer. They are cheap, all things considered!

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