Ask HN: What are useful OKRs and KPIs for SWEs • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What are useful OKRs and KPIs for SWEs

#11

Post by logifail » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

rvdmei wrote: post #10

flipchart wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't read the linked study, but it seems like all of those metrics (except time to restore broken service) can be very easily gamed - thinking about the recent SO blog post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25373353

Why would you want to game metrics that honestly can help improve your business outcome? The study is worth reading and to put it simply: the metrics seem to make sense anyway and if science proves that they do, that’s even better.

> Why would you want to game metrics that honestly can help improve your business outcome?

Q: If your manager imposed OKRs/KPIs on your team, especially if there were a financial incentive linked to achieving "results"/"performance indicators", how would you feel?

Note that what is good for the business may or may not have much to do - at least in the short to medium term - with what is good for the employees.

Re: Ask HN: What are useful OKRs and KPIs for SWEs

#12

Post by wschroed » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

rvdmei wrote: post #10

flipchart wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't read the linked study, but it seems like all of those metrics (except time to restore broken service) can be very easily gamed - thinking about the recent SO blog post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25373353

Why would you want to game metrics that honestly can help improve your business outcome? The study is worth reading and to put it simply: the metrics seem to make sense anyway and if science proves that they do, that’s even better.

Though I posted the study, I do want to see more work in that area to repeat the observed effects or to refine the KPIs. For example, I am personally skeptical of the notion of "number of defects per release" and want to see an exploration of "amount of time spent on defects per release".

Science doesn't tell us anything (that would be authority or religion), and it doesn't prove things. It is a process that can assist us in logically determining what is NOT true about a cause-effect relationship to the point where we can make more accurate and practical predictions about those causes and effects. More experiments refine the current beliefs.

Re: Ask HN: What are useful OKRs and KPIs for SWEs

#13

Post by rvdmei » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #11

rvdmei wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want to game metrics that honestly can help improve your business outcome? The study is worth reading and to put it simply: the metrics seem to make sense anyway and if science proves that they do, that’s even better.

> Why would you want to game metrics that honestly can help improve your business outcome? Q: If your manager imposed OKRs/KPIs on your team, especially if there were a financial incentive linked to achieving "results"/"performance indicators", how would you feel? Note that what is good for the business may or may not have much to do - at least in the short to medium term - with what is good for the employees.

Definitely a reason to try and game the metrics (and probably easy too). In my experience the metrics make sense when you use them to improve as a team, I would actually try to avoid using them as OKR or KPI.

Re: Ask HN: What are useful OKRs and KPIs for SWEs

#14

Post by drewcoo » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

wbharding wrote: post #6

I wrote about this a few months ago https://www.gitclear.com/five_best_engineering_kpis_and_how_... Most KPIs stop working when they become a target but there are a few that resist it.

Eliminate management by objective. - Deming

OKRs and KPIs are basically gamification of a business. Gamification is suited only to behaviors with extrinsic motivation. It cheapens previously "meaningful" work and stifles intrinsic motivation. When the goal is a target number, the behavior tends to be focused on moving that number rather than a holistic approach to the business.