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Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

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11–20 of 32 posts

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#11

I think a government made of computers and algorithms has the same issue as A.I. What costs do you speak of? What sort of satisfaction? As far as the "best and brightest", it sounds like you're spewing elitism. What should dictate best or brightest? IQ? That's not democracy. Democracy is a representative sampling of everyone's opinion and while not everyone has a high IQ they still deserve to get represented. What yo…

> I think a government made of computers and algorithms has the same issue as A.I. What costs do you speak of? What sort of satisfaction?

The House acts as a normalization feature to vote indirectly on behalf of it's constituents, but this could be achieved in other way, for example, a simple poll that requires x% of approval. The approval algorithm could even be complex that uses machine learning and advanced math.

Basically, if regulation, safety and security is a service that citizens want, I believe the entrepreneur can best satisfy these demands -- exponentially better than any politician. Voluntary trade should always be a nontaxable offense, and regulation should be a competitive, non-monopolized market. Technology is consistently improving because it's a competitive market, this is not true for regulation.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#13
As much as there's ways that computing could be (and is unevenly) used to increase retail-level government, there are good reasons to continue to include human beings in the governing process.

A few notions to look into:

* Condorcet voting systems * Mechanism Design Theory * Parliamentary systems

Finally, consider strongly the problem of the influence of capital on any system. In the US, there's the issue of campaign finance, for instance. But if you were to program a government, the problem would be worse: you'd only have to buy off the development team once, rather than bribing members of government repeatedly over time.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#15
post #9

I think a government made of computers and algorithms has the same issue as A.I. What costs do you speak of? What sort of satisfaction? As far as the "best and brightest", it sounds like you're spewing elitism. What should dictate best or brightest? IQ? That's not democracy. Democracy is a representative sampling of everyone's opinion and while not everyone has a high IQ they still deserve to get represented. What yo…

What makes you think that Democracy is the best system? I think the reason why the 1st world nations are successful is not due to Democracy but due to capitalism. I realize that the two go hand in hand (capitalism/free market requires a hands off/light regulatory approach), something that so far only a Democracy has been able to deliver (although it will be interesting to see how the Chinese model evolves).

I would say first world nations are economically successful because their economies became diverse, i.e. a heavily distributed, highly concurrent and parallel system of systems.

Given our current circumstances, it seems capitalism - i.e the central idea that a capitalist works for profit, etc - is now appearing to create economies which are now centralized around people/institutions which engage in nothing moving capital from one place to another, one industry to another, without the attendant in-betweens of the businessmen. And there's goes the concurrent property.

And I wouldn't knock democracy much. You might hate American politics now, but the Chinese version isn't better by any much.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#16

> Imagine how algorithms can be used to implement real-time, direct democracy. It's like you have never read a single dystopian sci-fi classic. What you're describing sounds like GOogle writ large. Count me out! (of course opt-out is not allowed in a system like this)

Can you recommend some of the classics to read?

In particular about real-time direct democracy.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#17

It's interesting to see Skynet posting on HN! How about a government where all citizens get to vote on all bills in real time by texting/tweeting/facebook "liking" yay or nay?

Very good... as long as my programs count your votes :-)

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#18
post #13

As much as there's ways that computing could be (and is unevenly) used to increase retail-level government, there are good reasons to continue to include human beings in the governing process. A few notions to look into: * Condorcet voting systems * Mechanism Design Theory * Parliamentary systems Finally, consider strongly the problem of the influence of capital on any system. In the US, there's the issue of campaign…

You could make the development process completely transparent, with input from a wide variety of people, checks and balances etc. and not begin implementing it without plenty of debate, examination etc. The bias is that those who are most interested in the process and/or the most vocal could end up being those with the most influence. But there's no reason not to at least start examining the problem from many angles and for as many people as possible to start trying to pick holes in it.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#19

> Imagine how algorithms can be used to implement real-time, direct democracy. It's like you have never read a single dystopian sci-fi classic. What you're describing sounds like GOogle writ large. Count me out! (of course opt-out is not allowed in a system like this)

Can you recommend some of the classics to read? In particular about real-time direct democracy.

Not completely pertinent to where I suspect your line of questioning is going, but Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is an interesting take on computer aided government.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#20
Some groundwork: why do we have governments? To allow us to live in peace with people we've never met before, who we could otherwise kill, rape, and steal from, without consequences. It's a giant machine to enforce the golden rule, "treat others how you'd like to be treated". Of course, governments do a lot of extra things, but they're just that, extra.

The socio-political landscape has changed a lot since the 1700's. I think the biggest difference now is that nations are much less homogeneous than they used to be. In america in the 1700's there was a dominant faith that provided a set of common standards, e.g. that murder, homosexuality, and theft were all wrong. This is no longer the case, and people have become polarized around many different issues. Technology allows us to become convinced of the rightness of our own cause, through association with like-minded individuals.

Another significant change is that people are much more likely to move around the country, and have friends and family in different states and countries. Using geography as the basis for government divisions (counties, states, nations) is still a good idea, but is becoming less and less so every day.

The conventional solution to the first problem is to give more legislative power to the states, so that, for example, people in the bible belt can have more conservative laws and people in California can legalize pot. This isn't a long term solution any more, because of the second problem.

So we have widely-differing views on what should and shouldn't be legal, but we can't just tailor certain laws to certain geographical areas.

Given these factors, I make the following recommendations:

* Remove the states, and combine the Senate and House of Representatives into one. Allow cities and counties to control any and all issues that are linked to specific locations.

* Stop legislating morality. Enforcing the Truth (by any definition) isn't part of the government's core purpose. I personally believe that abortion is murder (although in a certain subset of cases it is justified), but this is an issue that comes down to personal conviction. It is therefore out of scope for the government. Theft, on the other hand, should remain illegal because it is demonstratively bad for social stability.

* All laws should be subject to rigorous logical and scientific analysis. For example, if a particular trade policy cannot be proven to have a net positive impact on the happiness of people, it should not pass.

* This would involve setting up a fourth branch of government, which is responsible for collating and evaluating scientific data, and performing the analysis of proposed laws. This branch, like the judicial branch, would have the power to veto laws. I envision that for every law, a formal scientific proof will be made available to the public. This will provide a degree of public accountability.

We now have a system in which bad laws (hopefully) won't get passed the scientific analysis, so the negative impacts of populism (rule by the popular) is decreased. Now, notice that the format of congress was decided when we didn't have instant communication. Therefore:

* Take away the congressmen, and make parties (rather than people) the fundamental unit. Discussions between parties should take place online, or at least be aggregated online. Copies of the discussions should also be made available at all public libraries.

* Allow people to choose a party to represent them, or create their own. Parties will have voting power proportional to their number of supporters (measured in votes, not verbal declarations), and a party must have more than 0.5% of the votes before it gets into congress.

* Parties must have a declared high-level policy on every issue, and they will be bound by these policies. This is to prevent people from setting up specific-issue parties; people must learn to support a governance paradigm that is bigger than any specific issue. Note that this does not stop parties from negotiating about details.

* Elections at the moment are a sham, so instead have rolling elections. After a person votes for a party, they cannot change their vote for 3 months + (some random number less than 14) days. Note that the random number is different to each person, and changes each time the person changes their vote. Within a few years every day will be equally an election day. The purpose of letting people only vote every 3 months is, again, so that people realize that governance is bigger than their one pet issue.

* Any party in congress can propose a law, as can any group of citizens larger than 1% of the population. It passes into law when it (or a later revision) has the support of 50% of the votes in congress, as well as the support of the fourth branch of government.

Finally, because we're a global community now, no law will be passed if it steps on the rights of people from other countries, as given in a extended Universal Declaration of Rights. Declarations of war will have to be proven to be beneficial to everyone in the world, not just citizens of the USA. This should hopefully prevent another Vietnam or Iraq.

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