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Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#11

Post by mcv »

zboox wrote: post #5
s1t5 wrote: post #3

You have several years of software development experience. If that's true, you aren't really starting your career now, you're just looking for a more stable position. I think that the distinction is important especially in interviews because without it you might be underselling yourself.

Do I need to make that distinction explicit? Companies are usually more interested in hearing what the employee can do for them rather than what the employee wants out of their career. Underselling myself is probably also due to my lack of career intelligence. I don't know how to take responsibility for a career. I don't know how to give it periodic maintenance. I'm always living in the now, looking for my next jobs…

Hiring is a two-way street. Of course the company wants to know what you can do for them, but they also want to know what they can expect from you in the future, and that includes the direction you want to develop in. There's nothing wrong with wanting more stability.

Also, you may be passionate about things you don't have a lot of experience in yet. A company that's not sure whether you are right for them based on your experience, might reject you for having no passions or ambitions, or give you a chance when they think your passion and ambition fits the kind of things they do.

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#13

Post by sheepdog »

I'm 40-ish and have been self-employed for about 5 years now. I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route.

There are very few benefits to being a full-time employee that you can't obtain yourself. Plus, having a wide portfolio of freelance clients helps insulate you against business downturns and future age discrimination.

Granted, it's a lot of work to curate a good client list and network yourself. But it's actually the same amount of work as jockeying for promotions and good projects at a corporate job.

And there is some risk involved in working for yourself. But at a corporate job there is similar risk; you are always one bad quarter away from being laid off.

Working for yourself IS a career. Consider fortifying your position and staying the course.

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#14

Post by davidw3 »

sheepdog wrote: post #13

I'm 40-ish and have been self-employed for about 5 years now. I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route. There are very few benefits to being a full-time employee that you can't obtain yourself. Plus, having a wide portfolio of freelance clients helps insulate you against business downturns and future age discrimination. Granted, it's a lot of work to curate a good client list…

Do you have any advice for making that transition? I'm a SWE with about 3 years experience. I'm hoping to make this type of transition in a few more years. Also, are you in the US? Does paying for your own insurance significantly erode your earnings?

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#15

Post by pdubs1 »

Have a web portfolio of projects?

I worked on my own open source project-- without getting paid-- for months, just to have a complete project where I could show hiring engineers my code & a demo page about the project.

Two weeks after that, I was hired. I haven't lost the interest of 3rd party & in-house recruiters since then.

If you don't have a modern, up to date, open source project, as part of a web portfolio, you might consider putting 2-3 months into both a project (or set of projects) & a portfolio (or even 6 months like my crazy self did, while unemployed), then publish it.

You'll have a shiny new project, demonstrating modern skills, to show to a hiring manager/recruiter.

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#16

Post by zboox »

sheepdog wrote: post #13

I'm 40-ish and have been self-employed for about 5 years now. I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route. There are very few benefits to being a full-time employee that you can't obtain yourself. Plus, having a wide portfolio of freelance clients helps insulate you against business downturns and future age discrimination. Granted, it's a lot of work to curate a good client list…

I find freelancing to be a lonely experience. I don't get to talk shop with co-workers as well.

>I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route.

Just because that is your preferred experience, you want me to follow it? Okay but my personal goal is to be employed full-time and you seem more interested in making me more like you, and not like who I want to be.

If you want to help me on my goal to get employed full-time, I'm all ears. But I am not looking to be convinced to stay freelance.

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#17

Post by zboox »

mcv wrote: post #10

You can build up a very fine career as a freelance software engineer. My career really took off the moment I quit my job and became a freelancer at age 37. Of course as a freelancer, working on our network is probably more important than otherwise; you need to be able to find interesting projects, and you need recruiters and hiring managers to be able to find you. I think I've still neglected this aspect a bit too mu…

As stated before, I find freelancing to be a lonely experience. Not a lot of developers to talk shop to, and rarely do clients follow-up with additional work or referrals.

I finish work for clients as I get paid, and usually never hear from them again.

I've interviewed at larger companies trying to expand my career into being a senior among more developers but they seem to think I don't fit the bill, yet never tell me what I need to do to improve.

Lots of other small startups contacting me all the time trying to convince me to do a lateral move, but what's the point, I will just be the only in-house dev, stuck and stagnant again.

TBH I find freelance career maintenance to be laborious. It's just not right for me. I would rather move into a low maintenance software job rather than the high maintenance world of startups and freelance. It's so easy for me to lose my grip in freelance- I barely make enough money to stay above poverty level (I live in the US so I'm referring to US poverty).

At the very least I want to experience both full-time and freelance to an equal degree. Right now my experience is like 5% full-time and 95% freelance, so trying to shift my time spent on both closer to 50/50.

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#18

Post by mcv »

zboox wrote: post #17
mcv wrote: post #10

You can build up a very fine career as a freelance software engineer. My career really took off the moment I quit my job and became a freelancer at age 37. Of course as a freelancer, working on our network is probably more important than otherwise; you need to be able to find interesting projects, and you need recruiters and hiring managers to be able to find you. I think I've still neglected this aspect a bit too mu…

As stated before, I find freelancing to be a lonely experience. Not a lot of developers to talk shop to, and rarely do clients follow-up with additional work or referrals. I finish work for clients as I get paid, and usually never hear from them again. I've interviewed at larger companies trying to expand my career into being a senior among more developers but they seem to think I don't fit the bill, yet never tell m…

That depends entirely on how you freelance. I join teams. My current project, for a major Dutch bank, started with me developing the prototype, and later interviewing a bunch of people (internal and external) to join the team that I'm still part of.

At other projects, I was hired to add some external expertise to an existing team. But it's mostly long projects in teams.

But before I ended up in these sort of big projects, I went to a lot of local meetups to keep in touch with other freelancers. That can also be a great source of a network, although that never amounted to much for me.

> "Lots of other small startups contacting me all the time trying to convince me to do a lateral move, but what's the point, I will just be the only in-house dev, stuck and stagnant again."

It can be a great way to prove to the companies you actually want to get hired by, that you can work in a company as part of a team.

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#19

Post by sheepdog »

zboox wrote: post #16
sheepdog wrote: post #13

I'm 40-ish and have been self-employed for about 5 years now. I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route. There are very few benefits to being a full-time employee that you can't obtain yourself. Plus, having a wide portfolio of freelance clients helps insulate you against business downturns and future age discrimination. Granted, it's a lot of work to curate a good client list…

I find freelancing to be a lonely experience. I don't get to talk shop with co-workers as well. >I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route. Just because that is your preferred experience, you want me to follow it? Okay but my personal goal is to be employed full-time and you seem more interested in making me more like you, and not like who I want to be. If you want to help me…

My apologies. You have to be yourself, and there are some social benefits to going to the office. Assuming your freelance work counts as past experience, and that you are trying to stay in the same space, I'd offer these tips:

1. Tell prospective employers that you were very successfully self-employed, not unemployed. No one want to hire someone who is perceived as inexperienced, so you've got to make it clear that your freelance work was every bit as much "real work" as corporate projects.

2. Build a portfolio of freelance projects that are impressive. When talking about them, mention how you had to do "full stack" or "end to end" work. Make it clear that you deliver awesome stuff and work independently.

3. Sometimes getting a job is a "who you know" situation. Gently ask your freelance clients if they are hiring, even if it's temp to perm.

4. If you lack experience, try to get a "foot in the door" by taking a lower position. For example, if you can't get on the dev team, can you get hired as tier 2 support? It's not ideal, but you might be able to move to the dev team in 6-12 months if you are a good worker. Or you can use that as a stepladder to pivot to a competitor.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

#20

Post by sheepdog »

davidw3 wrote: post #14
sheepdog wrote: post #13

I'm 40-ish and have been self-employed for about 5 years now. I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route. There are very few benefits to being a full-time employee that you can't obtain yourself. Plus, having a wide portfolio of freelance clients helps insulate you against business downturns and future age discrimination. Granted, it's a lot of work to curate a good client list…

Do you have any advice for making that transition? I'm a SWE with about 3 years experience. I'm hoping to make this type of transition in a few more years. Also, are you in the US? Does paying for your own insurance significantly erode your earnings?

I'd recommend moonlighting to get a feel for it. It's a good way to test drive without the "sink or swim" pressure. You can get gigs from your network, partner agencies, or Upwork.com. (The pay sucks on Upwork, but it's good experience and you'll build your confidence.)

Another (more risky) approach would be to deliberately work at a 5 or 10 person company. This will give you a feel for how to "hunt for your own food" but still have a team backing you up. (I subcontracted at a few small agencies during year one, just to keep some cash flow going.)

I'm in the US, so healthcare insurance is a big concern. But corporations aren't the only ones who can buy health insurance. Depending on a lot of factors, it costs roughly $500-$1000 a month to ensure a family. Some chambers of commerce have a group plan that you can buy into.

On the surface, that sounds like a lot of money. But in reality, it's only $12k a year. If you are a primo engineer making $100k+ per year, save up over several years and you have 2-3 years of runway to pay for your insurance. The moonlighting will help with this as well.

Good luck!

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