Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Do you worry about copycats when building a project?

news.ycombinator.com

11–17 of 17 posts

Re: Ask HN: Do you worry about copycats when building a project?

#11
post #5

> I know people keep saying you might build the wrong project so you should release early. But what if I'm building the right project? The odds that someone else iterates on your idea aren’t zero, but they’re very close to zero. In practice, usually nobody else cares about your new thing enough to use it, let alone copy or improve upon it. OTOH, the odds that you need to iterate a few times before you have something…

> Going from 50% chance of making something useless to 25% - by seeing how users react to your product - is worth increasing the chances of a copycat from, say, 1% to 2% This is a very good argument for not worrying about copycats during MVP. I'll keep that in mind. But what about users? You talk with users, and tweak the product accordingly, they like it, and then they want a new feature, and it's also on the featur…

> Just make them wait as long as it needs

Yup[1], or explain to/convince them they don't actually need the feature, or use the money paid by happy customers to pay someone to implement it, or conclude that demand is so strong that it's worth raising capital to serve them sooner.

Operating a business is doing that over and over, hundreds of times, for years.

Especially for a bootstrapped business, the need to do that will actually _increase_ during the business's lifetime - and that's if you're fortunate. When you no longer need to tell even more prospective customers "No," that's an early sign that you're serving almost the whole market and that growth (and the chance to solve neat problems) will slow down.

If you're succeeding, lots of prospective customers will always want something you don't have. There will always be larger companies that could - and you believe should - easily invest more in your field than your whole business spends.

Here's a personal example. I ran a log management service that had no graphing/visualization service - for 5 years. It launched way back in 2012 (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110609005940/en/Clo...). If you'd asked me then whether it wouldn't get native graphing until 2017 (https://blog.papertrailapp.com/lightning-search/), I'd have said you were crazy - maybe even that it wasn't possible to exist that long without it. In those 5 years, I probably addressed that topic 500 times. Sometimes I explained why it wasn't necessary to solve the prospective customer's problem, sometimes I stated that my product wasn't a good fit, sometimes I tried to reduce the need for that feature (like by supporting external graphing services, which was a small enough amount of work that our tiny team could implement a great version: https://blog.papertrailapp.com/new-search-alerts-dashboard/).

But… our choices were sound and they worked out (though I assume there were >1 viable paths, not just the route we took). We had tons of demand for the problem we solved well, a very tiny team, and kept doing what I wrote in the first paragraph. You don't need to be able to solve all the problems for all the people, or even most of the problems for most of the people. You definitely don't need to be able to see the future. As long as you know precisely what customers want, why they want it, and how they value it ("We're paying someone to do this by hand and it's expensive and buggy" vs. "It would be cool if…"), and are constantly talking about and adapting to that information, the rest tends to work out.

37signals is the extreme version (100:1 no:yes?), but every other bootstrapped product business and many funded ones all do the same thing.

The way to get better at resource allocation is to do it over and over. Even if your first few products fail, there's always a next time - and it's easier when a failure takes 6 months and not 3 years :-)

[1]: https://signalvnoise.com/posts/1050-ask-37signals-how-do-you..., https://rework.fm/say-no/

Re: Ask HN: Do you worry about copycats when building a project?

#12
>I have a feature list that I'd like to implement down the road, some of them are quite technically challenging. Should I overcome such challenges before releasing the MVP?

Depends on how substantial it is to your Minimum Remarkable Product. You need to make a skateboard, get it on the asphalt, and see how it does. Talk to users asap, but if you are concerned someone will hijack and it pump out more features, you need more domain-specific knowledge that will render that infeasible/impossible. Additional features down the line, if you can keep their needs in mind during the early phases, you may be able to tease apart things that would otherwise lead to "Complected" circumstances (two things tied together that do not need to be). Building a team is harder than building an application, I wouldn't consider it lightly as a solution to an incomplete product. If you're going to build a skyscraper, you need a plan from day one, but you also need people who can help you work on the concrete floor and foundation, not too many window decorators quite yet. Basically you must weigh out the odds. Will someone release before you? (10-80%) Will someone release after you but out-compete you on features? (25%) Will someone attempt to make a competition app if yours hits the market first (5% likely) Will someone else attempt to hit the market first if no app is there (95%)

Find the minimal set of features that customers will pay you for and use that as your first comet to reach. Your overall strategy should be to make a banger product, and you don't know what that looks like until you put a plank in the room and say "hey what do you think of this couch" and someone else says "that's a couch?!" It's the way to making a perfect couch, a perfect piece of furniture, that is not predictable and not exactly teach-able. As long as you are creating a product in a market with little to no competition you are fine, but if there is a lot of competition, why are you fighting for a tiny slice of a big pie when you could have a huge slice of a pie elsewhere that can grow? Recommend watching videos about Peter Thiel's Zero to One.

Re: Ask HN: Do you worry about copycats when building a project?

#14
post #6
post #4

No. If it were easy, lots of people have already done it earlier. I've never seen a pure copycat do well; anyone who is copying features instead of talking to customers rarely understands it enough to build better products. Even if someone does copy you, it grows the market, at least for startups. Fashion buildings are often located next to each other, as well as book stores, hardware stores, and so on. Startups have…

> Even if someone does copy you, it grows the market, at least for startups. Thanks for showing me a totalizing view. This is another thing I should keep in mind. > No. If it were easy, lots of people have already done it earlier. I've never seen a pure copycat do well. > Unless yours is a trillion dollar industry, it probably won't be tackled by someone competent. When I saw the first the argument, I was gonna say A…

Correct me if im wrong but Xerox wasn't an apple competitor. Wozinak tried very hard to convince Xerox to go in to the computer space but they didn't decide to. Also Apple became a trillion dollar company not because of the idea but by execution.

Re: Ask HN: Do you worry about copycats when building a project?

#15
It's a non-issue. If you can build it, someone else can (and will). If your business is dependent upon the idea itself you are probably doomed or at least in for a hell of a fight. Anyone with funding could always come along with 10x the cash and resources to throw at the problem.

I recommend designing and building a business around some kind of competitive advantage, like data. In that case, even if your competitors have all of your code they still can't compete with you.

Re: Ask HN: Do you worry about copycats when building a project?

#16
post #6
post #4

No. If it were easy, lots of people have already done it earlier. I've never seen a pure copycat do well; anyone who is copying features instead of talking to customers rarely understands it enough to build better products. Even if someone does copy you, it grows the market, at least for startups. Fashion buildings are often located next to each other, as well as book stores, hardware stores, and so on. Startups have…

> Even if someone does copy you, it grows the market, at least for startups. Thanks for showing me a totalizing view. This is another thing I should keep in mind. > No. If it were easy, lots of people have already done it earlier. I've never seen a pure copycat do well. > Unless yours is a trillion dollar industry, it probably won't be tackled by someone competent. When I saw the first the argument, I was gonna say A…

I think it's fine to make users wait, or even give them a poor experience. I usually go for things were users have already hacked together a solution; the alternative is that they keep hacking even if they'd rather just outsource the work to someone else. If you're working in a field where plenty of competitors have IPv6 support, then copying isn't really your main problem.

You could simply release it first, then add support later when there are a lot of complaints on it. My preferred approach is to avoid paid marketing until there are no more complaints, but launching should happen early to collect complaints.

Re: Ask HN: Do you worry about copycats when building a project?

#17
So you're considering the worst case scenario is 1) you release the MVP 2) a competitor sees it and releases a finished copycat version within say 6 months 3) they take all your business?

If this were true and the only thing standing between you and success is a small head start, then you'd lose anyway as skipping step 1 will only buy you a small window of time.

Releasing a polished, targeted, marketed and paid product takes a massive amount of time and mental energy. Realistically, most indies have projects they're working on already and can't finish, and other teams aren't going to switch direction without a very good reason. Copycats will never be exactly the same either so there should always be a way to differentiate yourself.

Post reply on HN