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Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

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Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#11

Post by barrydahlberg »

temugen wrote: post #9

Python is an awesome language, but in a HS class you probably won't get past simple scripting paradigms. If you guys were already CS students with solid programming experience as well as the theory behind it, or if you were just science students wanting to hack around, then python would be a great choice. However, I think it would be more beneficial if you guys were to learn (sorry) Java and OO knowledge so that you…

VB.Net is far closer to C# or Java than VB6. It's like a real grown up OO language now.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#12

Post by jpwagner »

MIT teaches it as its intro now...

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=602307

and Norvig uses it...

http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html

I mean what more endorsement is needed? How about something really eloquent...

http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#13

Post by barrydahlberg »

barrydahlberg wrote: post #10

To be honest I think VB.Net is a decent choice for a high school level course. It's an approachable modern language backed by a huge framework with easy access to web, Windows and console programming. The IDE is free and relatively user friendly for someone familiar with Windows, which is much more likely than anything else. Don't underestimate VB.Net. It has a terrible history but most of that ended with VB6. Anothe…

Although I should point, C# is my language of choice on .Net.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#14

Post by barrydahlberg »

tkahn6 wrote: post #2

It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. - Edsger Dijkstra

Undownvoted for being somewhat relevant. We are really talking about different languages though.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#15

Post by temugen »

barrydahlberg wrote: post #11
temugen wrote: post #9

Python is an awesome language, but in a HS class you probably won't get past simple scripting paradigms. If you guys were already CS students with solid programming experience as well as the theory behind it, or if you were just science students wanting to hack around, then python would be a great choice. However, I think it would be more beneficial if you guys were to learn (sorry) Java and OO knowledge so that you…

VB.Net is far closer to C# or Java than VB6. It's like a real grown up OO language now.

Definitely. .NET is .NET and especially being imperative, VB is mostly just syntactic differences over C#. But neither of those languages are tested on the AP exam ;)

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#16

Post by leif »

Don't worry about it. You may hate vb.net, you hopefully won't care all that much. Either way, if your teacher wants to teach it, there's a reason (probably he's familiar with it and not with python, or he's on the MS payroll). It doesn't matter to you.

You sound like you want to learn about programming. "Programming" is a different discipline than "programming in vb.net" or "programming in python" or "programming in lisp". Learning about programming is a multi-step process, in which you first learn to define a problem in a sensible way and create a set of instructions for solving it, then write it in a language a computer understands, and then learn how to figure out any one of a million other ways to write it for a computer to understand. The first and last steps are the most important and can take years, the middle one usually takes a semester or two at the most.

Let your teacher walk you and the rest of the class through the middle one with vb.net, then go home with your smarty-pants friends and start slogging away at the other two steps. Every time you get a programming assignment, do it in vb.net. Then do it in python. Then figure out what they have in common and where they are different. Explain it to your friends, and listen to their explanations. Then do it again in all the other languages you can find.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#17

Post by andreyf »

Well, both have enough documentation that you can learn them without the need for a formal curriculum, and both are certainly worth learning - the .net VM is among the best of its kinds. Since a lot of VB.net documentation is in the form of expensive books, while Python documentation can be had for free, convince your teacher to use VB.net, and use your school as a resource to pay for your books.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#19

Post by sp4rki »

I don't think Python is a good idea for a high-school class (where a big bunch of the people don't really care about programming anyways). Hell anyone that already knows a bit of programming will be completely thrown off his chair by the whitespace constraints, while new ones will probably have an awful time trying to debug anything.

Python is a great language and it certainly is 'easy' in contrast to a bunch of other languages, BUT a high-school class is to learn to program in general, and Python doesn't strike me as a good language to learn to do so from scratch.

Ruby is a bit better, but I'd argue the same thing. VB.net really is a better suited language to learn to program, and although I don't really like it myself, I agree with everyone saying it's a great language to start with. You can always learn Python on your own time, and I'd even argue that with what you'll cover in a high-school class, it really doesn't even matter since you'll be ahead of the whole class (not the people, the curricula) in a month if you learn Python on your own.

Re: Ask HN: Help me convince a teacher we should learn Python (vs VB.net)

#20

Post by enry_straker »

Why?

1) Your teacher cannot learn a new language well enough to teach a bunch of high school students in time. Have some consideration for him.

2) Your goal when starting to learn programming is not to learn the syntax of any one language, it's to learn to solve problems using programming. - Learn about P-code ( or psuedo code ) - Learn about Simple Data Structures. - Learn about conditional( if-then-else ) constructs - Learn about iterative( for-while ) constructs, - Learn how to declare variables and initialize them; - Learn how to edit-debug-run code - Learn how to version-control code (any file in general) - Learn how to write functions/methods/sub-routines. - Learn how to comment your code for future debugging

These are fundamentally the same in almost all modern programming languages. The syntax changes from one to another is mostly cosmetic. The key is good coding and problem solving habits and attitudes.

3) It's easy to spend time on the internet and be anamored about a particular language, particular OS, particular editor etc - but in the long run, they are commodities; there's no great big differences between them

4) If you really want to work in python, do so. Finish your problems in VB.NET and re-write it in python. Just don't impose your preferences on your teacher and entire class. It would detract from the goal of the class.

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