Earlier quoted context omitted.
Give me a plausible scenario where a company with no physical inventory to sell is making $1.5 Billion in revenue and un-profitable.
I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air, but consider it plausible. Let's say 2200 employees with an average expense of 100K/year (salary and benefits) = 200 million dollars right there in costs. Factor in property (building, furniture etc) and other standard business operation costs. Then when you get to the engineering side of the house - the data centers, servers, bandwidth, etc. It is easily plausible for faceb…
Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
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Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#12Reality is Yahoo wasn't going to make revenue after time, FB and YT probably will.
Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#13This is great because all it costs to sell the media is the sales guy salary, any commission he makes off the media sale, and if you're good any in-house media guys that create the banners/ads etc. The more traffic you bring, the more "inventory" you can sell.
Selling advertising and media is very profitable. Most internet companies make their money through advertising if their product is free. Only companies that sell actual things like EBay or Amazon make legitimate sales of real goods.
The trick is to keep the faith in your advertising platform. Yahoo, Google, Facebook ... companies advertise with them because they know eyes go there. What the product is determines the audience it brings, which will determine who your advertising clients are.
The more qualified the audience is, the more impactful the advertising is, especially if they know enough about you to target the correct ad (most advertising-revenue based companies will collect some form of data about their users for this - this is nothing new).
The loophole in the OP's logic is that people invest in the internet due to revenue growth of Yahoo. If Yahoo was the reason the investment was made, and all that money went back into Yahoo - yes there could be a false feedback loop. But as long as the advertising that is sold on Yahoo is somehow benefitting the advertising company, there is a sustainable model.
Only if they sell a bunch of advertising that later turns out to be useless will you have a pot of hot water to climb out of.
Edit: Impaction is definitely not a word.
Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#14They're hella profitable http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/03/facebook-revenue-2010/
Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#15People invest based on what they think the company will earn in the future. That's how investment works - you're betting that, given some money now, they'll make you more money later. Considering the huge role Facebook has taken in the Internet, I'd say betting on them is a great idea.
Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#16"I would like to talk today about the stock market," he said. "I will be talking about pricing stocks, but I will not be talking about predicting their course of action next month or next year. Valuing is not the same as predicting.
In the short run, the market is a voting machine. In the long run, it's a weighing machine.
Weight counts eventually. But votes count in the short term. And it's a very undemocratic way of voting. Unfortunately, they have no literacy tests in terms of voting qualifications, as you've all learned."
"This is half of a page which comes from a list seventy pages long of all the auto companies in the United States." He waved the complete list in the air. "There were two thousand auto companies: the most important invention, probably, of the first half of the twentieth century. It had an enormous impact on people's lives. If you had seen at the time of the first cars how this country would develop in connection with autos, you would have said, 'This is the place I must be.' But of the two thousand companies, as of a few years ago, only three car companies survived. [21] And, at one time or another, all three were selling for less than book value, which is the amount of money that had been put into the companies and left there. So autos had an enormous impact on America, but in the opposite direction on investors."
"Now the other great invention of the first half of the century was the airplane. In this period from 1919 to 1939, there were about two hundred companies. Imagine if you could have seen the future of the airline industry back there at Kitty Hawk. You would have seen a world undreamed of. But assume you had the insight, and you saw all of these people wishing to fly and to visit their relatives or run away from their relatives or whatever you do in an airplane, and you decided this was the place to be.
"As of a couple of years ago, there had been zero money made from the aggregate of all stock investments in the airline industry in history.
"It's wonderful to promote new industries, because they are very promotable. It's very hard to promote investment in a mundane product. It's much easier to promote an esoteric product, even particularly one with losses, because there's no quantitative guideline. But people will keep coming back to invest, you know. It reminds me a little of that story of the oil prospector who died and went to heaven. And St. Peter said, 'Well, I checked you out, and you meet all of the qualifications. But there's one problem.' He said, 'We have some tough zoning laws up here, and we keep all of the oil prospectors over in that pen. And as you can see, it is absolutely chock-full. There is no room for you.'
"And the prospector said, 'Do you mind if I just say four words?'
"St. Peter said, 'No harm in that.'
"So the prospector cupped his hands and yells out, 'Oil discovered in hell!'
"And of course, the lock comes off the cage and all of the oil prospectors start heading right straight down.
"St. Peter said, 'That's a pretty slick trick. So,' he says, 'go on in, make yourself at home. All the room in the world.'
"The prospector paused for a minute, then said, 'No, I think I'll go along with the rest of the boys. There might be some truth to that rumor after all.'
Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air, but consider it plausible. Let's say 2200 employees with an average expense of 100K/year (salary and benefits) = 200 million dollars right there in costs. Factor in property (building, furniture etc) and other standard business operation costs. Then when you get to the engineering side of the house - the data centers, servers, bandwidth, etc. It is easily plausible for faceb…
@blantoni: You can find Facebook data center cost data here: http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2010/09/16/faceb... You'd have to 10X those costs (to $500M/yr), plus assume a 250% overhead (another $500M) on top of your $200M salary and benefits figure for Facebook to be in the red. Calling that plausible would seem a bit of a stretch.
That doesn't include a 200 million dollar data center project to be built in Pineville, OR. And that does not include infrastructure, bandwidth, software, hardware maintenance etc.
Let's face it, Facebook does not sell a product. Their only current viable revenue model is through advertising.
Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#18Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#19Re: Ask HN: Is Facebook benefiting from a ponzi scheme? a bubble?
#20- Down economy. When ordinary people are going further and further into debt, they will differentiate products on price and not brand. They will cut back on all things save the necessities.
- Consumer startups are dying/getting smaller. Techcrunch recently mentioned venture funding drying up in consumer space, instead the money is flowing more towards enterprise. Therefore, those startups won't have massive budget to advertise online anymore.
- Big corporations will be scaling back on paid advertising. They can use free platforms like facebook pages and twitter to do the new product rollouts and announcements, which is becoming more of the norm.