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Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

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11–20 of 23 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#11

Make a private IRC channel. It's a pretty hardcore technical filter, but such are the times. > [...] employers of the 1960s regarded programmers as unmanageable, citing contemporary sources that branded programmers as "prima donnas" who were "arrogant," "egocentric," and devoid of social skills. > [...] a manager at IBM and Diebold bemoaned the fact that programmers' labor-market power undermined "the normal employer…

The “normal employer-employee relationship” still “in part, depends on the fear of termination....” What has changed?

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#12

Make a private IRC channel. It's a pretty hardcore technical filter, but such are the times. > [...] employers of the 1960s regarded programmers as unmanageable, citing contemporary sources that branded programmers as "prima donnas" who were "arrogant," "egocentric," and devoid of social skills. > [...] a manager at IBM and Diebold bemoaned the fact that programmers' labor-market power undermined "the normal employer…

The “normal employer-employee relationship” still “in part, depends on the fear of termination....” What has changed?

The fear part most likely. Depending on what year the quote is from there's a chance that they literally couldn't find a replacement for a programmer. Or want to soak the costs of training one on the job.

Nowadays a lot of developers I know, myself included, work where they do because they like it and it pays somewhat better than the other guys. If I lose my job oh well. I'll throw out my resume, take a week off, and there's a good chance I'll have another job.

It isn't that it won't suck, but it's not going to cripple me or really interrupt my life. The question of "Are they going to fire me?" becomes kind of a joke.

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#13
With all due respect to the other answers in other threads, it sounds to me that there is a toxic company culture if employees feel they need a “private” slack channel where they can post work appropriate messages without reprisal. I understand that a single dev can’t always fix the underlying problem and sometimes needs to focus on mitigating a symptom. But should the question really be “what can we do to fix the company culture”?

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “normal employer-employee relationship” still “in part, depends on the fear of termination....” What has changed?

The fear part most likely. Depending on what year the quote is from there's a chance that they literally couldn't find a replacement for a programmer. Or want to soak the costs of training one on the job. Nowadays a lot of developers I know, myself included, work where they do because they like it and it pays somewhat better than the other guys. If I lose my job oh well. I'll throw out my resume, take a week off, and…

In my experience, the “I’ll just find a new job in a week “ meme is overstated. It takes longer than a week to get to an onsite interview in my experience. Sometimes it’s even longer.

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fear part most likely. Depending on what year the quote is from there's a chance that they literally couldn't find a replacement for a programmer. Or want to soak the costs of training one on the job. Nowadays a lot of developers I know, myself included, work where they do because they like it and it pays somewhat better than the other guys. If I lose my job oh well. I'll throw out my resume, take a week off, and…

In my experience, the “I’ll just find a new job in a week “ meme is overstated. It takes longer than a week to get to an onsite interview in my experience. Sometimes it’s even longer.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “normal employer-employee relationship” still “in part, depends on the fear of termination....” What has changed?

The fear part most likely. Depending on what year the quote is from there's a chance that they literally couldn't find a replacement for a programmer. Or want to soak the costs of training one on the job. Nowadays a lot of developers I know, myself included, work where they do because they like it and it pays somewhat better than the other guys. If I lose my job oh well. I'll throw out my resume, take a week off, and…

> Depending on what year the quote is from

It's from "On the Management of Computer Programming" published in 1970. He complained about some of programmers being Haight-Ashbury hippies and disliked programmers' desire for "beards, sandals, and other symbols of rugged individualism."

The more things change, and some such...

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fear part most likely. Depending on what year the quote is from there's a chance that they literally couldn't find a replacement for a programmer. Or want to soak the costs of training one on the job. Nowadays a lot of developers I know, myself included, work where they do because they like it and it pays somewhat better than the other guys. If I lose my job oh well. I'll throw out my resume, take a week off, and…

In my experience, the “I’ll just find a new job in a week “ meme is overstated. It takes longer than a week to get to an onsite interview in my experience. Sometimes it’s even longer.

Admittedly yes, especially in the current market but it does illustrate the reasoning behind the quote. The shift in labor-market power of developers is undeniable. Realistically it would take me closer to a month from search to first day if I was jumping at the first opportunity. I've certainly known people with a broad enough network and in-demand skills who could land one in a week or two however.

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fear part most likely. Depending on what year the quote is from there's a chance that they literally couldn't find a replacement for a programmer. Or want to soak the costs of training one on the job. Nowadays a lot of developers I know, myself included, work where they do because they like it and it pays somewhat better than the other guys. If I lose my job oh well. I'll throw out my resume, take a week off, and…

> Depending on what year the quote is from It's from "On the Management of Computer Programming" published in 1970. He complained about some of programmers being Haight-Ashbury hippies and disliked programmers' desire for "beards, sandals, and other symbols of rugged individualism." The more things change, and some such...

Interesting. That sounds like it could be a fun read just to see the change in management styles around programmers.

Re: Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams?

#20

With all due respect to the other answers in other threads, it sounds to me that there is a toxic company culture if employees feel they need a “private” slack channel where they can post work appropriate messages without reprisal. I understand that a single dev can’t always fix the underlying problem and sometimes needs to focus on mitigating a symptom. But should the question really be “what can we do to fix the co…

Anecdotally, the answer is: In an overwhelming majority of the cases, not much.

It seems as engineers/programmers/etc are generally looked down upon by many in marketing, sales, and various management position regarding their ability to understand how a company should be "run", down to trivial things like how to plan an office space.

I don't have much issue with open office spaces, at least not well designed ones, but many engineers do, and all those engineers are demonstrably more productive in a space adapted to their work habitat preferences. And still, even where office space costs are a fraction of the costs, you see terrible open spaces. Almost always against the entire engineering departments wishes.

It almost has to be some sort of culture thing, as I've seen first hand how common engineering values such as openness, a relative objectivity, clarity of vision/direction, etc works when actually applied. They work amazing!

It was at this company, one that during the dotcom craze managed to retain engineers 3 times longer than the industry average. They constantly hit their deadlines, customer trust was sky high. All this with good velocity while having a technically very advanced product.

If I would name one thing that might have been the sauce that made it possible: You could not become a manager, go into sales without working 1st line support some amount of time until you knew the product(s)

I don't understand exactly why that seemed to have such a staggering effect, if it indeed was the cause, but I've never ever seen an org run even nearly as smooth as that one!

Maybe it helped people at all levels to understand intuitively, that a bold claim in a meeting room, doesn't fix the customer issues? Only a lot of hard work does.

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