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Ask HN: What is going on?

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Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#11

Post by pasbesoin »

Once you start lying, you lose your credibility -- even when you are telling the truth.

More and more people are coming to believe society -- "the state", doctors, bankers, etc. -- has lied to them.

The thing is, they're not wrong. Just look at the "outsourcing/off-shoring's good; we'll all become managers/bankers/lawyers/professionals" statements from the '90's. (Here in the U.S.) Rescinding Glass-Steagall. (And don't forget the Clinton administration's part in that) "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction." Eat margarine (trans-fats), not butter. Bullies only hurt themselves... Oh, and lately, "We'll only use these surveillance powers under extra-ordinary circumstances. For terrorism. On foreigners. Well, unless they're talking to someone from the U.S. Or we make a "mistake". Or we buy it from a third party. Or we use a Stingray, that we definitely don't want to tell you about. Parallel construction...

Authority is shifting its base, in many places, from credibility to power.

Making the incredible credible. Fostering a more base human nature.

The conspiracy theorists may be wrong about some things. But the authority figures telling them this, have lost a lot of their credibility.

This is the real cost of the lies we're facing, from our "leadership" -- political, economic, even scientific. (How many discredited studies, advisories, medications, herbicides, pesticides, commercial processes...? And not just discredited, but these results hidden as much and as long as possible, for personal profit.)

How do I deal with this, in my personal life? I try to be as truthful as possible.

Of course, my life experience with this puts me in mind of that song from Depeche Mode:

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/depechemode/policyoftruth.ht...

But, the people I end up valuing, seem to value the truth I have -- warts and all.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#12

Post by staunch »

Consider that you're probably just in a bad state of mind. You shouldn't quit your job or write these people off while you're in a bad place mentally.

When you're feeling better, you may find that your friend was just exploring his dangerous thoughts in private with you, and your roommate is just ignorant and/or nervous about vaccines.

You should probably just relax and focus on getting some strenuous exercise, good sleep, healthy food until you feel better.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#13

Post by rajacombinator »

Talking to people who disagreed with you made you have a bad day? Maybe it could have been an interesting day if you put your ego aside and focused on trying to understand them. What makes you so certain your beliefs are correct anyway? Have you reviewed the evidence on both sides?

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#14

Post by benbreen »

sasaf5 wrote: post #6

Once a friend went on a moon landing denial rant. I immediately started an ironic spherical earth denial rant, copying every argument he was using. Problem solved.

I had a really bright student in one of my classes past year who was a moon landing denialist. She said her best friend, who was a student at Berkeley, had convinced her and was also a flat earther. I was shocked, until I learned that they'd been indoctrinated via r/conspiracy and YouTube. Now I see that stuff as a subset of the problems with social media in general - namely distrust of the media and expert knowledge combined with the creation of insular online communities that can lead into a new kind of groupthink.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#15

Post by sasaf5 »

benbreen wrote: post #14
sasaf5 wrote: post #6

Once a friend went on a moon landing denial rant. I immediately started an ironic spherical earth denial rant, copying every argument he was using. Problem solved.

I had a really bright student in one of my classes past year who was a moon landing denialist. She said her best friend, who was a student at Berkeley, had convinced her and was also a flat earther. I was shocked, until I learned that they'd been indoctrinated via r/conspiracy and YouTube. Now I see that stuff as a subset of the problems with social media in general - namely distrust of the media and expert knowledge…

Deep in my heart I still believe that the flat earth society is a massive joke on conspiracies, and one day they will come out and say "ha!!! you thought we were serious? super-gotcha!!!".

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#16

Post by raquo »

odonnellryan wrote: post #10
cuckcuckspruce wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get the fuck out of here you uncivil, disruptive, completely wrong prick. Nobody fucking likes you, and until you're willing to comport yourself to civil society, kindly fuck off. See, doesn't feel very good, does it?

Isn't that the point? Removing people from social circles has been a human tactic for generations, really.

That only works when almost everyone agrees on things you want to ostracize people over.

However, unfortunately there are so many idiots that this pretty much only works to divide a society into ideological camps with few negative consequences to individuals but a lot of damage for the society at large.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#17

Post by bmarquez »

You can only convince people that are open to being convinced. Usually I've seen this take some sort of harsh real-world personal experience that contradicts their existing world-view.

Personal example: I used to strongly defend Obamacare, and would dismiss any arguments against it as trolling. Until I had to sign up with Covered California, deal with the buggy website, wait on hold for hours, then deal with higher deductibles and miscellaneous bureaucracy. Then I realized the detractors had a point and basically switched sides.

Lastly, do you have to persuade someone to take your point of view? Are you able to be friends with them otherwise? If so, continue to be their friend and wait until an event happens that leads them to question their beliefs. Then subtly drop hints...remember, nobody likes to be told they're "wrong".

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#18

Post by htwillie »

Why do you believe what you believe is true? Independant study? Easiest possible explanation? Herd effect? Fear of standing out?

It's rare that you can change another persons mind. But you can try to understand why they believe what they do.

You present vaccinations as an example, with "decades of evidence supporting them." That's far less time than evidence supported a flat earth.

The thing is, some vaccines work pretty well. Others don't. It's complicated by the fact that if they don't work, or if they injure or kill you, you can't get your money back or bring lawsuits against the manufacturers or providers.

And there's no laws or regulations that say vaccines must work. Vaccine makers can literally solubilize dog shit and call it a vaccine. And it will "work" for quite a lot of people. There's billions of dollars counting on the us believing they're effective. That blind faith in vaccines has been waning for quite a while now.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#19

Post by phakding »

Majority of people attach themselves to a viewpoint based on either emotions or because someone they trust and respect told them so. And once they do, they can't separate themselves from their views. If you try to attack their beliefs, they take it as affront to themselves. When that happens, no amounts of facts will change their mind. Instead they will just shut you out and their beliefs will now be more firm.

I would love to tell you an alternative approach, but I don't know of any.

I have just given up. I just nod and say ok or change the topic. It's not my job to change people's minds.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#20

Post by BjoernKW »

sasaf5 wrote: post #15
benbreen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a really bright student in one of my classes past year who was a moon landing denialist. She said her best friend, who was a student at Berkeley, had convinced her and was also a flat earther. I was shocked, until I learned that they'd been indoctrinated via r/conspiracy and YouTube. Now I see that stuff as a subset of the problems with social media in general - namely distrust of the media and expert knowledge…

Deep in my heart I still believe that the flat earth society is a massive joke on conspiracies, and one day they will come out and say "ha!!! you thought we were serious? super-gotcha!!!".

I think they already did when they stated that there were flat Earth believers all around the globe.
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