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Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

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Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#11

Post by noamelf »

biasforaction wrote: post #8

I burned myself out building and launching a cloud service last year. After that service launched publicly, I quickly took three weeks off. The first week I felt depressed and was barely able to get up in the morning. The second week I started to feel better and was able to achieve daily goals. The third week I started to feel like my normal self but was nowhere close to being ready to go back to work. Currently, I'm…

Man, I feel close to what you feel. By the end of the week I'm so burned out.

I have 2 (at least) voices competing. One wants to experience life fully, and one that is eager to achieve results and wants to be "someone" and get somewhere. It can be a real struggle.

I feel like finding a way to let go of being "the best" (I also tend to study in the evenings), just being average me, is what can bring about real change, but it will take a lot of effort since it is deeply rooted in me.

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#12

Post by itamarst »

noamelf wrote: post #11
biasforaction wrote: post #8

I burned myself out building and launching a cloud service last year. After that service launched publicly, I quickly took three weeks off. The first week I felt depressed and was barely able to get up in the morning. The second week I started to feel better and was able to achieve daily goals. The third week I started to feel like my normal self but was nowhere close to being ready to go back to work. Currently, I'm…

Man, I feel close to what you feel. By the end of the week I'm so burned out. I have 2 (at least) voices competing. One wants to experience life fully, and one that is eager to achieve results and wants to be "someone" and get somewhere. It can be a real struggle. I feel like finding a way to let go of being "the best" (I also tend to study in the evenings), just being average me, is what can bring about real change,…

You can study on the job. It's, in fact, the best way to study. Even if you're using technologies you already know, there's almost always something you can learn on the job. If not, switch to a job where you're not learning.

Also, achieving results is not done by working long hours. It's done by avoiding unnecessary work, by prioritizing. My experience, and that of others who work less than 40 hours a week, is that we become far more productive as we developed the relevant skills. E.g. https://lobste.rs/s/hvjwd6/how_become_part_time_programmer#c... talks about it.

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#13

Post by itamarst »

biasforaction wrote: post #8

I burned myself out building and launching a cloud service last year. After that service launched publicly, I quickly took three weeks off. The first week I felt depressed and was barely able to get up in the morning. The second week I started to feel better and was able to achieve daily goals. The third week I started to feel like my normal self but was nowhere close to being ready to go back to work. Currently, I'm…

I would suggest not working in the evenings for a while. You'll do much better if you take a break and go do something completely different.

When I didn't have a kid I took liberal arts classes at Harvard's adult education school in the evenings. Very different kind of intellectual challenge, and lots of fun. Turned out to be useful for programming too, but that wasn't the goal.

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#14

Post by SirLJ »

Yep, working from home, I take 2 hours lunch break to exercise a bit, eat and nap for an hour and after that I can be productive again in the the few remaining hours until 16:30

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#15

Post by PaulStatezny »

biasforaction wrote: post #8

I burned myself out building and launching a cloud service last year. After that service launched publicly, I quickly took three weeks off. The first week I felt depressed and was barely able to get up in the morning. The second week I started to feel better and was able to achieve daily goals. The third week I started to feel like my normal self but was nowhere close to being ready to go back to work. Currently, I'm…

It sounds like you really gave your all to your employer, and it left you feeling demoralized and depressed. It also sounds like you feel stuck. Stuck in the situation, stuck in the bad feelings. My heart goes out to you.

At times, I’ve put an unhealthy focus on work, and it’s left me feeling drained of life. Probably a similar feeling to yours.

It sounds like your schedule isn’t allowing for much human-to-human connection. (Away from computers!) I don’t know about you, but that’s probably the main human need I have when I overwork! I’d suggest limiting the evening learning sessions and try to invest in some friendships! Try to brighten up someone’s day!

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#16

Post by PaulStatezny »

Chyzwar wrote: post #10

Get rid of the TV.

> Get rid of the TV.

I agree this can be helpful. But it seems there are some deeper things going on.

I’m no psychologist or therapist, but it seems there are things going on at the emotional or psychological level that need to be addressed.

Of course I don’t know this person, but I imagine solely getting rid of the TV would just make room for a different “mind numbing habit”.

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#17

Post by BjoernKW »

First, everyone's different. There's no single optimal workload that applies to everyone.

That said, 8 hours of real, intense, mentally challenging work per day probably is more than enough for most people.

The problem is that when talking about work in terms of time spent this often includes stuff that isn't really work at all but mindless busywork like writing emails, attending pointless meetings or idle water cooler talk.

This is particularly prevalent with those 'vaunted' 60+ hour weeks (also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law).

The point being: Your 40 hour work week might very well be equivalent to somebody else's 60 hour work week in terms of workload and mental energy required.

You seem to have already found a viable solution by working remotely and splitting your day in 2 halves. If that works for you you should try to optimise your work in a way that you can do this more frequently.

There are fully remote companies with employees across multiple timezones. So, this is definitely achievable. It just requires a little more effort than the default 9-5 kind of work organisation.

It should be in your employer's interest to ensure the long-term happiness and effectiveness of employees. So, why not talk with your employer about this and try to make the necessary changes in work organisation?

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#18

Post by tboyd47 »

noamelf wrote: post #9
tboyd47 wrote: post #7

Think of human activity as lying on a spectrum of mental effort. You probably need activities that lie somewhere in the middle range of energy and complexity. Work is probably on the higher end: an continuously exhausting challenge. Vegging out in front of the TV is the lower end: relaxing, but unfulfilling and boring. If the only mentally engaging activity you ever do is work, then every time you get bored, you will…

> Think of human activity as lying on a spectrum of mental effort. You probably need activities that lie somewhere in the middle range of energy and complexity. Work is probably on the higher end: an continuously exhausting challenge. Vegging out in front of the TV is the lower end: relaxing, but unfulfilling and boring. > If the only mentally engaging activity you ever do is work, then every time you get bored, you…

What about on the weekends?

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#19

Post by muzani »

Working a proper 9-5 job in software is extremely tiring. I compare it to athletes; you can't expect an athlete to work 8 hours a day of intense training without collapsing. Often they work a certain amount of hard hours and a few softer ones. They cycle it.

One should do the same for programming as well. It's all energy management. I find I can only work 3 hours on a tough problem, and the rest would be something lighter like refactoring or writing tests.

A lot of people who wake up at 5 and sleep at 11 PM are managers, which isn't as energy intensive.

Re: Ask HN: 9-5 burnout?

#20

Post by muzani »

PaulStatezny wrote: post #15
biasforaction wrote: post #8

I burned myself out building and launching a cloud service last year. After that service launched publicly, I quickly took three weeks off. The first week I felt depressed and was barely able to get up in the morning. The second week I started to feel better and was able to achieve daily goals. The third week I started to feel like my normal self but was nowhere close to being ready to go back to work. Currently, I'm…

It sounds like you really gave your all to your employer, and it left you feeling demoralized and depressed. It also sounds like you feel stuck. Stuck in the situation, stuck in the bad feelings. My heart goes out to you. At times, I’ve put an unhealthy focus on work, and it’s left me feeling drained of life. Probably a similar feeling to yours. It sounds like your schedule isn’t allowing for much human-to-human conn…

Ha, interesting. Every time I'm severely burnt out, it has to do with humans, not computers.

Computers do work as you tell them to. Humans will make life difficult for you just to make it easy for themselves.

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