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Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

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11–20 of 37 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#11
post #2

Simple answer - no money in osx, it's all in ios.

Which is funny because you can't build an iOS app without OS X (err.. MacOS*)

I wrote this in another comment, but it's relevant here:

It wouldn't surprise me if in the next few years Apple slowly winds down all things Mac. Marketing, updates, upgrades etc. and while doing that makes XCode Windows compatible.

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#12
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is funny because you can't build an iOS app without OS X (err.. MacOS*)

I wrote this in another comment, but it's relevant here: It wouldn't surprise me if in the next few years Apple slowly winds down all things Mac. Marketing, updates, upgrades etc. and while doing that makes XCode Windows compatible.

Hopefully Linux compatible comes with that.

I’d be pretty surprised though. The Mac line may not be Apple’s biggest seller, but it’s not like it’s losing them money. It’s a huge revenue stream.

Also don’t underestimate the impact of the fact that every employee at apple uses Mac.

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#13
post #10

I have a mid 2014 Macbook Pro (top of the line, discrete GPU and all) and some recent update has made it really slow (not the Meltdown updates, something before that). It now takes an age to switch workspaces, to load the task switcher, to change applications etc. Stuff also seems to go wrong more. App crashes, iTunes refusing to open, Finder crashing etc. The annoying thing is I tried to upgrade to a new Macbook Pro…

I have to admit to the same suspicions over the years, but then the question is: what supported/reliable solution will they implement for iOS development? Sure, there are options for developing to the iOS platform outside of X Code/macOS, but something better would have to be introduced before EOLing macOS. Do they simply introduce macOS as an independent operating system and/or license vendors to produce hardware to a certain specification?

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#14
This happens with every release of OSX, it's why most long time OSX users are so cautious about upgrading when a new version arrives. Here are a few examples.

Yosemite: https://fieldguide.gizmodo.com/the-worst-bugs-in-os-x-yosemi...

Mavericks: https://www.wired.com/2013/10/mavericks-issues-and-fixes/

El Capitan: https://www.imobie.com/support/mac-os-x-probelms-and-solutio...

Personally, I remember this as far back as the first upgrade I participated in, from Leopard to Snow Leopard: http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/backstage/comments/problems...

I had trouble finding lists of Sierra's issues due to naming conflicts with High Sierra, but off the top of my head I think that was the version that broke Homebrew's permissions scheme, requiring manual intervention on the part of many users.

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#15

This happens with every release of OSX, it's why most long time OSX users are so cautious about upgrading when a new version arrives. Here are a few examples. Yosemite: https://fieldguide.gizmodo.com/the-worst-bugs-in-os-x-yosemi... Mavericks: https://www.wired.com/2013/10/mavericks-issues-and-fixes/ El Capitan: https://www.imobie.com/support/mac-os-x-probelms-and-solutio... Personally, I remember this as far back as…

I believe Sierra also broke the way that MySQL tunnels were established which broke many MySQL clients.

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#16
Been there done that. A real solution would be to stop hiring new developers, to reduce the size of the current dev team, to reduce the size and responsibility of the QA team in order to force developers to test their own code. To eliminate any new feature requirements, to prioritze regression testing (migration, update, etc) and to allocate a whole release to trim the pile of bugs in radar.

Why Apple can’t do that? 1. Pressure from investors “we want to see new stuff”. 2. If they stop hiring new “talents” that would benefit other companies including competitors. 3. You can’t hire good developers and ask them to fix bugs for a year because they would run away from you which would compromize 1. And 2.

It is a tough problem for Apple it ain’t easy to fix. In other words, Apple needs a Steve Jobs. It needs to focus and disconnect from the world for a little while no matter the short term consequences. If you’re confident enough you’re doing the right thing for your customers, it’ll pay off in the long run.

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#17
post #2

Simple answer - no money in osx, it's all in ios.

Tragically I think this is the answer - all of Apple's talented developers have most likely shunted over to iOS and the quality of macOS has been left to rot. What's infuriating is that High Sierra, as referenced in its naming scheme, is supposed to be minor improvements on top of plain Sierra, but it breaks so many things that I am drawn to compare it to Vista - half-baked, unfinished, should never have been release…

I hear this all the time but I’m not sure it’s true.

iOS is in the exact same place. The number of weird bugs and subtlety broken interactions I’ve seen has been growing exponentially.

Even as I type this my Safari address bar is pushed halfway into my status bar, making them overlap.

A couple of weeks back my phone became unusable in the middle of the Everglades as I was relying on it to get back to my hotel. A message notification got stuck on screen and it blocked input with anything system related.

I couldn’t even turn it off because the strange new reset procedure isn’t exactly discoverable and the normal slider couldn’t be intersected with!

Those are just anecdotes, but it happens often enough I’m sure most users of iOS 11 will be able to identify that this is just par for the course on iOS these days.

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#18

This happens with every release of OSX, it's why most long time OSX users are so cautious about upgrading when a new version arrives. Here are a few examples. Yosemite: https://fieldguide.gizmodo.com/the-worst-bugs-in-os-x-yosemi... Mavericks: https://www.wired.com/2013/10/mavericks-issues-and-fixes/ El Capitan: https://www.imobie.com/support/mac-os-x-probelms-and-solutio... Personally, I remember this as far back as…

So is a long trend:

https://macperformanceguide.com/topics/topic-AppleCoreRot.ht...

Is a interesting tesis...

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#19
post #8

An alternative explanation, likely unsatisfactory, but possibly correlated to continued growth of social media such as this very site: Stanford linguistics professor Arnold Zwicky coined [the term "frequency illusion"] in 2006 to describe the syndrome in which a concept or thing you just found out about suddenly seems to crop up everywhere. It’s caused, he wrote, by two psychological processes. The first, selective a…

I think there is another psychological factor at work, which is that people feel more critical toward, or at least more free to express criticism of, very successful people or orgs.

When Apple was struggling for success against Microsoft a decade ago, it seemed like a lot of tech folks gave them a pretty big benefit of the doubt. OS releases had problems then, but the reaction was usually balanced by a sense of, "this is progress though."

Now that they are the most valuable company in the world, there's not really any benefit of the doubt anymore.

I think a similar effect was at work in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. The widespread assumption was that Clinton was by far the stronger candidate, so there was very little benefit of the doubt for anything.

Re: Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff?

#20
post #8

An alternative explanation, likely unsatisfactory, but possibly correlated to continued growth of social media such as this very site: Stanford linguistics professor Arnold Zwicky coined [the term "frequency illusion"] in 2006 to describe the syndrome in which a concept or thing you just found out about suddenly seems to crop up everywhere. It’s caused, he wrote, by two psychological processes. The first, selective a…

I think there is another psychological factor at work, which is that people feel more critical toward, or at least more free to express criticism of, very successful people or orgs. When Apple was struggling for success against Microsoft a decade ago, it seemed like a lot of tech folks gave them a pretty big benefit of the doubt. OS releases had problems then, but the reaction was usually balanced by a sense of, "thi…

I think the name for that is "Survivorship Bias" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias), though it doesn't inherently have to do with being critical of noticeable/successful entities; just focusing on them.
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