You can involve the police if you choose. Negotiate on that basis.
Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
11–19 of 19 posts
Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#12How much has he spent so far. On one hand it seems fairly small, which should not be an issue to repay. But I can see being a bit angry no matter the amount if he continue to do it after talking with him. If he is not communicating, then perhaps put a hold on or cancel the company credit card he carries? I'd only do this if he is avoiding you while continuing to use the card for person expenses. What do your other fo…
It is fairly small (sub $1000), but large compared to our income over the past 6 months. We are trying to slowly grow, gain more capital to do more ambitious projects without involving VC's in an attempt to keep the corporation for us. I think the anger issue is definitely something that is getting to me, AND the other founders. We are definitely trying to cancel the corporate card, however Wells Fargo is giving us t…
random ideas:
-- get a new card account, then use up available credit on the old card with a cash advance or some other reversable transaction. -- report the card as lost. -- send him a letter/email explaining (nicely) that he has until X date to repay the money or you will go to small claims court. There you wouldn't need a lawyer -- you'd only have to pay a filing fee, and a judgement in your favor could affect his credit rating, and give you a tool to force repayment.
Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#13Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#14What you have now is the situational equivalent of the Kubler-Ross stages of death. Your brain needs to cope with this. Your brain isn't coping yet.
What you do next will affect your future. Not because of this thief. Because your action will demonstrate to yourself that you can be jerked around and you will let people steal from you. OR NOT.
I had an employee embezzle from me. Not exactly the same but similar. I was ashamed and embarrassed. I'm a tax lawyer FFS. I should be smarter than that.
I had her arrested. It was time to stand up for myself. I suspect it is time for you to stand up for yourself.
Your company may be dead as a result of this. You don't have total control over that result. Your next business will do well if you insist that you be treated honorably and not be stolen from. As soon as you're willing to let _this_ company die for reasons beyond your control, you'll take action. Because you already, in your heart, know what to do.
There may or may not be ways to evict him and keep the company going. Don't hold onto this company at all costs. But do stand up for yourself here. If you don't the wheel will come around again and someone else will steal from you. And again until you insist that it stop. Then it will.
Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#15Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is fairly small (sub $1000), but large compared to our income over the past 6 months. We are trying to slowly grow, gain more capital to do more ambitious projects without involving VC's in an attempt to keep the corporation for us. I think the anger issue is definitely something that is getting to me, AND the other founders. We are definitely trying to cancel the corporate card, however Wells Fargo is giving us t…
You're not overreacting -- this could turn into something more serious. Some people you find aren't really your friends until it's too late. Though I agree you probably don't want to get the police involved, and I'm not sure there would be anything they could do since it's probably a civil matter. random ideas: -- get a new card account, then use up available credit on the old card with a cash advance or some other r…
Seriously, this guy has shown himself to be fundamentally dishonest (both for starting this behavior after the rules of the game have been well established over a couple of years and then by neither stopping his theft or repaying as he promised). You're just not going to make things work with this guy and it's a lot broader than him taking money from the company that can't afford it, he's demonstrated that you can't trust him at all.
As philiphodgen says, either you remove him from the company (and don't delay) or you remove yourselves from it and let it die. You've given him the one chance he deserves, now is not the time for half-measures, including any compromise that includes him continuing to work with you in any way.
My father once worked at a very high level for a company where one of the founding partners started helping himself to anything he took a fancy to. The company was very profitable so it's not quite the same thing; getting rid of this partner was intensely painful and expensive (e.g. his demands for immediate cash when it came time for investment limited the options and caused everyone to take a needlessly big tax hit).
One lesson from the above is that if you do become successful the pain and difficulty is only going to be greater. If you were making 10/100/1000 times as much money how much might he be helping himself to? He feels entitled to the money....
Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#17Then, set up a policy requiring 2 people to sign for all purchases, and pay for things by company check only. Establish a formal expense reimbursement process. You can probably get an accountant or bookkeeper to help you set this up.
If this person was initially a friend and productive, and suddenly started behaving differently, there are three possibilities.
1) He was always a bad person, and you just didn't notice.
2) He has given up on the company for some reason related to the company, and is being passive-aggressive, plus inherently somewhat dishonest.
3) He is having personal financial/emotional/etc. problems.
Not sure how you would determine which of the above it is, or how best to respond.
I've had embezzlement happen at a company I owned, and it ended up killing the company (the scale of embezzlement was high, and it wasn't a normal tech company). Ultimately, the problem is a lack of process/controls, adequate enforcement and supervision, and hiring immoral people. As a result, I am much more cautious with all of those things now.
I think you're more doomed due to lack of founder vesting than anything else.
Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't realize that he had gone incommunicado. Regardless, I would still try to reach him from any possible form of communication and talk to him. If he is clearly avoiding you guys while continuing to misspend company money, then I would talk to a lawyer. Did you guys set up any kind of vesting schedule for each of your 20% of the company? It's a fact of startup life that founders will sometimes leave, and vesting…
No vesting schedules, so that makes it all the more hairy from a founder leaving stand-point. At the time we started working with him he was a responsible individual who knew what he was doing. It is only recently that these issues have popped up.
Re: Ask HN: Misuse of corporate funds in a small business
#19Also, from a tax standpoint, your business will need to account for his expenditures. Depending how how he's spending the money, and how it's accounted for, it could create some problems down the road.