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Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

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Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#11

Post by bbcbasic »

astdb wrote: post #7

One aspect that would separate a 'senior' engineer from the rest would be initiative, leadership and mentoring ability. These are the engineers who go the extra mile to ensure that the team gets stuff done, and assistance and guidance is provided where required. A senior developer isn't just someone who knows a lot of stuff, but has a time-honed wisdom as well, which they can parlay into their leadership and mentorin…

I like your definition because it is timeless and rings true. The same definition will apply in 10 or 20 years time when there are new fads in development processes, programming languages etc.

I would add that the senior engineer has a mature approach to selecting/recommending tools and frameworks, based on what is most valuable for the business and the team, rather than was is cool, good for their career or whatever.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#12

Post by DSteinmann »

peterkelly wrote: post #3

It's a pretty arbitrary term, but based on what you've said, especially "I don't fancy the new and shiny. I just get things done fast and done properly" , would be enough for me to label you a senior programmer. Our industry is way too obsessed with fashion... sooner or later you realise that most of the "new" stuff is largely existing ideas re-hashed in a slightly different form. Senior programmers realise this and…

> but based on what you've said, especially "I don't fancy the new and shiny. I just get things done fast and done properly", would be enough for me to label you a senior programmer.

I think that's wild speculation. That phrase could mean a number of things.

It could mean they engage in the industry, explore new technologies and make educated decisions which balance the risks associated with adopting new technologies and, in some cases, choose to use technologies that are fit for purpose but are not necessarily bleeding edge.

On the other hand it could mean they have failed to keep up with technological advancements and are using the wrong tools for the job, tools that can't deliver a modern web experience. He might be churning out shocking legacy code that someone else will have to clean up one day. Perhaps his employers are none the wiser and don't realize a different developer could deliver a better quality product in a much shorter time using the tools available today.

Given OP's examples of not knowing "Amazon" or Java Spring, both of which are ancient technology in web years, I would speculate the OP might fall into the latter category. Another strong indicator of this: OP has been doing web development "as long as [they] can remember". You'd think his coworkers or employers would have told him he was a senior developer if he hadn't figured it out himself.

Overall, insufficient information in the OP to make an assessment, but I would be very wary of pandering to someone's ego as it can do more harm than good.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#13

Post by dvcrn »

I'm also agreeing with leadership and mentoring. Be able to make unbiased technical decisions, troubleshoot systems / apps and get up to speed on new projets independently fairly fast. Have confidence in what you do and don't ask about everything.

A solid general code understanding is also needed in my opinion. This includes things like using documentation over googling everything. If I pair with a senior and he types "golang how to do x" on every problem, I probably wouldn't consider him senior. (Not saying googling is bad. Just don't be a copy-paste-from-stackoverflow engineer)

With that, I also hate the term "senior engineer". I got friends with 3 years of work experience that are now "senior" because a company hired them under a senior position (basically more salary) and the companies after that just did the same because "well he already is a senior, right"? This also generates a strong in-balance inside the team with a hierarchy that shouldn't be there. I am usually advocating for getting rid of job titles and calling everyone just "Software Engineer"

I am now 6-7 years into my career and don't consider myself senior. When people in interviews ask me what my career goal is, I usually mention I want to be able to consider myself senior as the next step.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#14

Post by zamalek »

jakecarpenter wrote: post #10

To me, it is about what they are able to create independently, and the value of the end product. Senior people have made the right mistakes, wasted weeks of time, and know what to avoid, what to embrace, and what to ignore. A senior dev can understand the requirements and figure out what is important and deliver something without a lot of external input.

> Senior people have made the right mistakes

This really sums it up, almost every other answer could be seen as a consequence of this.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#17

Post by vacri »

DSteinmann wrote: post #12
peterkelly wrote: post #3

It's a pretty arbitrary term, but based on what you've said, especially "I don't fancy the new and shiny. I just get things done fast and done properly" , would be enough for me to label you a senior programmer. Our industry is way too obsessed with fashion... sooner or later you realise that most of the "new" stuff is largely existing ideas re-hashed in a slightly different form. Senior programmers realise this and…

> but based on what you've said, especially "I don't fancy the new and shiny. I just get things done fast and done properly", would be enough for me to label you a senior programmer. I think that's wild speculation. That phrase could mean a number of things. It could mean they engage in the industry, explore new technologies and make educated decisions which balance the risks associated with adopting new technologies…

"done properly" means not taking the shortest, technical-debt-laden path to success (amongst other things). It's a hallmark of a senior, in my opinion.

Also, why would you know Amazon operations stuff if your job duties don't expose it to you? The OP was saying 'operate Amazon', not 'use Amazon APIs'.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#18

Post by scotty79 »

I became a "senior" when my financial expectation were higher than the maximum salary of non-senior developer at a company that tried to hire me.

They were forced to offer me position of senior developer and no other company after that dared to offer me lower position.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#20

Post by CaRDiaK »

bbcbasic wrote: post #11
astdb wrote: post #7

One aspect that would separate a 'senior' engineer from the rest would be initiative, leadership and mentoring ability. These are the engineers who go the extra mile to ensure that the team gets stuff done, and assistance and guidance is provided where required. A senior developer isn't just someone who knows a lot of stuff, but has a time-honed wisdom as well, which they can parlay into their leadership and mentorin…

I like your definition because it is timeless and rings true. The same definition will apply in 10 or 20 years time when there are new fads in development processes, programming languages etc. I would add that the senior engineer has a mature approach to selecting/recommending tools and frameworks, based on what is most valuable for the business and the team, rather than was is cool, good for their career or whatever…

"selecting/recommending tools and frameworks, based on what is most valuable for the business and the team" This is so true, I would say it extends to style amongst other things also. Having worked seniors on teams who had to seemingly make problems "worthy" of their skill and time served. For example working on a large OO Monoliths where a senior started to add lots of "clever" functional code. When I started the question the reasoning behind it I got a lot of instant defensive flack off them because "it's a better way" and "I'm arguing against correctness" they didn't seem to want to understand that we had 50 mid level to junior devs who also had to support this who would require a lot of help to read or follow it, thus slowing the entire team. They didn't seem to care for the reasoning of it being better "for the team" to just carry on with the agreed OO standard.

It's not that I thought they were wrong in what they had to say, just there is an appropriate time and a place and being able to make that call is just as if not more important than the style of functionality being added. I find such seniors can be toxic at times. In essence there is more to being a senior than just being a great coder.

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