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Ask HN: Is age an issue?

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Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#1

Post by clueless123 »

I am an old coder. I've being coding since the TRS80 model 1.. bla bla bla..

My question is: Honestly, in today's "hackers news" world, is age an issue when hiring developers ?

I ask not because I have trouble getting jobs (For years I've been a contractor at various Fortune 100's and I'am doing good), but because I keep getting asked crazy stuff at interviews.. like: "what is my favorite Java class" or What is the signature of XYZ class or the kind of stuff that my IDE does for me..

I might be suffering from early ICRS disease.. but don't see the value of memorizing ever changing API's (strut,spring,hibernate,ibatis, etc ) when google is one click away.!

Anyway.. be brutal, give me your thoughts...

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#2

Post by brk »

Without blathering on too much...

Yes, age is an issue.

If you are too young, there is a worry that you will be some combination of immature, inexperienced, difficult, unreliable.

If you are too old, there is a worry that you will be some combination of less productive, untrainable, unreliable, demotivated, coasting.

When dealing at either of these extremes, you may find it helpful to adjust your resume to be short with an entry at the end "further detailed experience available on request" (ie: to hide your 20 year work history, or your 5 year work history), and/or do a phone interview first (so that your apparent age is less obvious) to build interest.

YMMV

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#3

Post by mbrubeck »

Some companies want someone who is already an expert at a particular tool. Some have good reasons for this, some bad.

Also, you'll find that a bunch of programmers these days basically consider Java to be the entire programming universe. Many of them have gone through university and several jobs without being exposed to anything else. They don't really consider the fact that could be experienced programmers who have no Java knowledge, and they don't consider it a fad or a passing thing. I suggest seeking out companies that are working with Python, Ruby, Perl, Scala, etc. - not because of the tools themselves, but because they tend to expect that candidates will be learning new tools and languages all the time.

Yes, you will probably be discriminated against by some companies. Fortunately, there are companies out there that don't. I expect the latter category will grow as the overall developer population ages. (Remember, our entire industry has grown from almost nothing in just 30-40 years.) At my current company, at least one engineer is a grandfather and several people have children near my age (and I'm a parent myself).

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#4

Post by clueless123 »

brk wrote: post #2

Without blathering on too much... Yes, age is an issue. If you are too young, there is a worry that you will be some combination of immature, inexperienced, difficult, unreliable. If you are too old, there is a worry that you will be some combination of less productive, untrainable, unreliable, demotivated, coasting. When dealing at either of these extremes, you may find it helpful to adjust your resume to be short w…

Actually, I am not asking for "getting a job" purposes.. I am asking for more practical reasons. like in: what is your opinion/experience about old coders continuing to code after 50 :)

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#5

Post by sophacles »

(warning: some pretty broad generalizations ahead)

From what I've seen, it depends on the area in which you want to program. The areas that fetishize the new (for being new) have a tendency to dislike experienced/older people. Particularly noticeable amongst web frontend people I've worked with. In places with deep domain voodoo or that fetishize the better (systems, networking, and so on) old is not a barrier, and experience is valued.

As for ridiculous questions about apis... I have done well for myself by answering those types of questions with things like: "my ide does that, so I don't know" and "who cares?" -- sure I've "lost out" on a few code monkey jobs, but instead I've had some pretty cool stuff to work on.

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#6

Post by scottw »

I'll say "sort of."

If I'm a good manager, I'll take you for who you are and evaluate you individually. I know a handful of awesome coders over 50 who are awesome primarily because they a) work really hard, b) learn new stuff all the time, and c) have a ton of valuable experience.

However, most of the programmers over 50 I know aren't good because they occasionally lack a), but nearly always lack b).

If I'm a bad manager, I'll likely lump you in with the majority of codgers I know and not give you a fair shake. I'm sorry, but I think most managers are bad managers, and most of the time people are going to judge you before they know you.

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#7

Post by peterhi »

clueless123 wrote: post #4
brk wrote: post #2

Without blathering on too much... Yes, age is an issue. If you are too young, there is a worry that you will be some combination of immature, inexperienced, difficult, unreliable. If you are too old, there is a worry that you will be some combination of less productive, untrainable, unreliable, demotivated, coasting. When dealing at either of these extremes, you may find it helpful to adjust your resume to be short w…

Actually, I am not asking for "getting a job" purposes.. I am asking for more practical reasons. like in: what is your opinion/experience about old coders continuing to code after 50 :)

The problem can be that when your hair starts to go grey people either expect you to be some sort of certified genius or completely out of touch (granddad).

Of course in the world of blue chip consulting this can be seen as good thing. The mature / older consultant talking to the mature / older client can work wonders for a business relationship.

Small startups unfortunately can either assume that the older you are the less 'up to date' you are and that your skills and experience somehow don't translate to the hip world of the startup.

Also smaller companies expect that they will have to pay older people more than a younger person, and the truth is younger people will work for less as they have less commitments.

I am 48 and joined a small company this year. It's a relaxed place and the fact that I an nearly 20 years older than my manager is not a problem.

So it can work out.

YMMV

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#8

Post by markkanof »

Regarding the detailed questions about APIs, I think that can sometimes indicate an interviewer that hasn't really given much thought to the type of skills that are needed to do the job. I've been guilty of this myself. Asking quiz type questions that really only test the candidates ability to memorize and don't reveal anything about how they think about problems.

As I've grown in my abilities and experience it's become obvious to me that how people solve problems and if they write maintainable code is much more important than if they know some minutia about the development platform. I've worked with people that could answer all the quiz type questions, but just didn't really have the mental ability to reason about and implement an elegant solution to a complex problem.

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#9

Post by hvs »

I don't require applicants to have memorized frameworks, APIs, and other implementation-specific details in my interviews. I ask general programming/computer science questions that get to their level of knowledge. I also have them do a programming test before they come to the interview, and allow them to do it in the language they prefer. Age generally hasn't been an issue, but most applicants are younger.

I think this will become a bigger and bigger issue as the programming industry really starts to mature and you have a large number of developers that never wanted to move into management.

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