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Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

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Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#1

Post by throwaway43 »

The Indian mobile operator Airtel has proposed a new scheme called Airtel Zero here in India , which is supposedly an "open" platform that would allow any app maker to pay for the data so that customers can use the app without paying any data charges.

This is ofcourse , a blatant violation of net neutrality and has caused an uproar here in India . However they're trying to make this into a Rich vs poor thing by saying that banning zero rating is to deny poor people access.

The worse thing is that both Google and Facebook are in support of this scheme even though they support net neutrality in the US. Facebook was already in violation with their Internet.org scheme but I didn't expect this from Google.

If Airtel's experiment succeeds I think that this could be replicated across the world and destroy the very character of the internet.

The other problem is that zero rating is a bit of a trickier debate since it's not the customer who's paying.

We need to force the tech majors to take a stand against this. What can be done to force them ?

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#2

Post by danieltillett »

I am not sure why businesses paying the data charges of their customers is a violation of net neutrality? It might be anti-competitive and an abuse of market power, but unless the traffic was prioritized over other traffic how is this a violation of net neutrality?

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#4

Post by 6d0debc071 »

danieltillett wrote: post #2

I am not sure why businesses paying the data charges of their customers is a violation of net neutrality? It might be anti-competitive and an abuse of market power, but unless the traffic was prioritized over other traffic how is this a violation of net neutrality?

The concern, presumably, is that customers who receive their data for free with respect to a certain number of applications will have less of an incentive to place themselves in the position whereby they pay for the data and can access the Internet as a whole. It would, in effect, be a way of imposing asymmetrical data patterns through incentivising selective aspects of consumer behaviour.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#5

Post by Xixi »

danieltillett wrote: post #2

I am not sure why businesses paying the data charges of their customers is a violation of net neutrality? It might be anti-competitive and an abuse of market power, but unless the traffic was prioritized over other traffic how is this a violation of net neutrality?

If I understand correctly, someone out of data on his/her plan will be able to access data from some businesses (who pay for the data), and not from other "normal" businesses.

So in a sense it's a form of binary prioritization: 0 or 1.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#6

Post by jheriko »

> We need to force the tech majors to take a stand against this.

Why exactly?

The crux of this argument seems to be "having more money makes you better able to compete"

This falls out of free market capitalism. Its not going to go away without regulation, and it seems like doing so will disadvantage swathes of poor people for questionable benefits.

I do see the argument, but I think its quite far out of touch with reality, as a lot of these 'internet rights' and silicon valley engineers seem to be.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#7

Post by Perdition »

danieltillett wrote: post #2

I am not sure why businesses paying the data charges of their customers is a violation of net neutrality? It might be anti-competitive and an abuse of market power, but unless the traffic was prioritized over other traffic how is this a violation of net neutrality?

Large telecom companies ran a fairly effective campaign confusing people about what net neutrality was actually about.

I've heard all kinds of silly things like net neutrality wouldn't allow end-user set QOS. Or that it wouldn't allow ISPs to throttle people who exceed "acceptable use" limits.

As for the proposal in the OP I don't see the issue with it. Plenty of companies make arrangements (usually physical co-location of servers) with ISPs so that certain content doesn't count against users data caps.

That could get abusive if the ISP had a very low data cap but coincidentally services also owned by the ISP were off cap. But in most situations they are just giving you something extra, not taking away as ISPs were doing with targeted throttling.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#8

Post by danieltillett »

6d0debc071 wrote: post #4
danieltillett wrote: post #2

I am not sure why businesses paying the data charges of their customers is a violation of net neutrality? It might be anti-competitive and an abuse of market power, but unless the traffic was prioritized over other traffic how is this a violation of net neutrality?

The concern, presumably, is that customers who receive their data for free with respect to a certain number of applications will have less of an incentive to place themselves in the position whereby they pay for the data and can access the Internet as a whole. It would, in effect, be a way of imposing asymmetrical data patterns through incentivising selective aspects of consumer behaviour.

Yes I can see it is anti-competitive and may not be in the general good, but I don't see how it a violation of net neutrality?

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#9

Post by nathan_f77 »

If I was developing an app in India, I would love to pay for my users data. This is a huge win for both companies and customers.

My opinion is that this should have nothing to do with the "net neutrality" debate. It's just shifting more costs onto the host, instead of the user. The host already pays for all the servers and outgoing bandwidth, why is it a problem if they also pay for the other side of the connection?

And if any website can opt-in to this arrangement, then there is nothing anti-competitive about it at all.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of zero rating?

#10

Post by danieltillett »

Xixi wrote: post #5
danieltillett wrote: post #2

I am not sure why businesses paying the data charges of their customers is a violation of net neutrality? It might be anti-competitive and an abuse of market power, but unless the traffic was prioritized over other traffic how is this a violation of net neutrality?

If I understand correctly, someone out of data on his/her plan will be able to access data from some businesses (who pay for the data), and not from other "normal" businesses. So in a sense it's a form of binary prioritization: 0 or 1.

It isn't a violation of net neutrality if I don't pay my cable bills and so get cut off. I am not suggesting that it is a good idea for companies to abuse their market power, but it is not an abuse of net neutrality to pay someone else's bill.
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