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Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

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Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#1
Question related to the topic of multiple discussion threads about sexist behaviour in the tech industry...

There are many cases where it is clear ethically and legally what can be said/done with coworkers of any sex - this is one of the cases where the person's behaviour was clearly wrong: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9178681

However, there also some other situation in the modern workplaces where you can find yourself in the legal/ethical grey zone. For example: you gradually become friends with your coworkers, start spending time together doing things outside of your work context. You can end up hanging out privately with your superiors or subordinates and this can eventually lead to various personal and romantic entanglements.

The legal advice would be: don't. But, the modern workplace culture encourages being more then 'professional coworker' to your coworkers outside of the office. And I personally think it is a good thing because it makes workplaces more human. I certainly made some amazing friends (both male and female) at the places where I worked.

But, my question is: has anybody with legal and/or HR credentials and some ethical sense written any definitive guide what is OK and what is not specifically in the context of the modern office?

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#2
I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?"

She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. What am i supposed to do about that?"

So my follow-up question to OP's is: what is she supposed to do about that?

I'm a hetero white male manager. And I have no idea how to answer that question.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#3
My two cents:

As you point out in the question, you're never going to receive a set of rules that you just have to follow like a checklist, because the same behaviors can be consensual and encouraged between one pair of people, and non-consensual and creepy between another pair of people. That's normal.

The only definitive rule is: don't hurt people. If you hurt someone, even in a small way -- and you will -- apologize sincerely when called out, and try harder next time. No-one expects you to never make (non-huge) mistakes; just to learn from the ones you make.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#4
post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

Networking is the most straightforward answer there. Every time you make a new hire let her know first. Let her know that you understand that feeling isolated in the workplace can happen for a lot of reasons, but if you are of a legally protected status there are steps as her manager you can take to alleviate that. Give preference to candidates she recommends and feels comfortable with.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#5
> has anybody with legal and/or HR credentials and some ethical sense written any definitive guide what is OK and what is not specifically in the context of the modern office?

Yes, they have. I am NOT one of them. I don't have one of those guides. But I've received enough mandatory training to have a layperson's understanding of the baseline in my national jurisdiction which is USA. The baseline is twofold, it is fairly clear, and it is worth reviewing. Don't take my word for it, but I think if you check your authorities you may get confirmation.

First, no "quid pro quo." That is, you should steer clear of even the appearance that you will provide business advantage in exchange for affectionate acts from a person who is sexually attractive to you. This principle is an excellent reason not to ask an interviewee to go out on a date (slightly simplifying an example from elsewhere in recent Hacker News).

Second, no "hostile environment." That is, you should steer clear of even the appearance that you are making the workplace uncomfortable for people who are sexually attractive to you. Decorating your desk with a calendar featuring glamour photos of models, unless that is your duty in your occupation, is not a very good idea.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#6
post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs.

in a 3D Euclidean space where do the person is supposed to be looking at? Staring all the time down into the table? Up into the ceiling? Close the eyes every time while moving eyes from ceiling to the table? I'm asking just out of curiousity as personally i just stare either into ceiling or into laptop and whatever happens / whoever present at the meeting - i'm not here :)

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#7
post #6
post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. in a 3D Euclidean space where do the person is supposed to be looking at? Staring all the time down into the table? Up into the ceiling? Close the eyes every time while moving eyes from ceiling to the table? I'm asking just out of curiousity as personally i just stare either into ceiling…

I mean, there's a difference between looking at someone because they're talking or you're engaging in the meeting with them and staring directly at their boobs. I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#8
post #6
post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. in a 3D Euclidean space where do the person is supposed to be looking at? Staring all the time down into the table? Up into the ceiling? Close the eyes every time while moving eyes from ceiling to the table? I'm asking just out of curiousity as personally i just stare either into ceiling…

You look at the face of the person who's talking. Or, if there's a presentation, you look at the material being presented. You might also look at your phone or notes or computer. but those are all somewhat rude for other reasons.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#9
There is an important difference between tech companies and many other kinds of workplaces. Tech has a greater tendency to consume people outside of work. Many go home from a day of programming, and relax by programming open source or hobby projects. They want to socialize with other tech people, because tech is their life.

Most other lines of work don't seem to spill out as much from the office, and people in them seem to socialize more outside their field. If X and Y are married, I think P(X is in field F|Y is in field F) is generally higher when F is a tech field than when it is not.

So even if tech were 50/50 male/female, I think we'd still have more problems than other fields (although if women were equally represented and powerful, more of the complaints would be from men being hit on by women at work...).

Sometimes I think tech companies should set up some kind of internal dating or matchmaking site, and establish a rule that if an employee is interested in exploring romantic or sexual relationships with coworkers, they have to go through that site. Communication otherwise must be kept on a professional level.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#10
post #9

There is an important difference between tech companies and many other kinds of workplaces. Tech has a greater tendency to consume people outside of work. Many go home from a day of programming, and relax by programming open source or hobby projects. They want to socialize with other tech people, because tech is their life. Most other lines of work don't seem to spill out as much from the office, and people in them s…

> Sometimes I think tech companies should set up some kind of internal dating or matchmaking site, and establish a rule that if an employee is interested in exploring romantic or sexual relationships with coworkers, they have to go through that site.

I feel a great disturbance in the force as if a million lawyers cried out in horror/glee and where at once silenced.

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