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Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

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Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#1
All I hear about is how no one can find (good) engineers. I had dinner with a friend last night complaining that this is killing his company's growth...but they only make offers to 1/100 resumes that come-through. I've heard this before and don't think it's uncommon.

What's really wrong with these developers: undertrained, low mental horsepower, bad "fit", imperfect industry experience? All of these are true, but 99/100!?!

With such a developer shortage, can these companies really not get productive work of a slightly broader group?

Something isn't fitting together here.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#3
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/01/27.html

From what I've seen, the other 99% of resumes are people trying to break into the field but with no actual programming experience. Competent developers with a track record get snapped up really quickly, while newbies without a track record go on to apply to 100 more jobs.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#4
>can these companies really not get productive work of a slightly broader group?

Relative to the 1/100 resumes-- if your friend took the time to dig deeper, he'd likely spot 2-3 diamonds in the rough, a moneyball misfit.

If your friend is like most senior managers, he'll scoff at the idea-- 'I'm too busy to read 100 resumes' he'll likely say, or 'that's HRs job!'

Finding & attracting talent is a mission critical competency that senior leadership must drive. Too often it's delegated to mid-tier management that don't share the same sense of urgency.

It takes an exceptionally rare manager who can assess and train-up mediocre talent into A-Player status. Fewer still, who have the guts to make a trial hire. A bad hire can be costly on a variety of levels.

But most guys would rather play it safe-- blame HR, lack of bandwidth, or the market. Meanwhile, the guys who figure it out manage to scale.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#5

>can these companies really not get productive work of a slightly broader group? Relative to the 1/100 resumes-- if your friend took the time to dig deeper, he'd likely spot 2-3 diamonds in the rough, a moneyball misfit. If your friend is like most senior managers, he'll scoff at the idea-- 'I'm too busy to read 100 resumes' he'll likely say, or 'that's HRs job!' Finding & attracting talent is a mission critical comp…

It could be a resources problem. The company I'm about to leave wanted me to find 24x7 on-call DevOps folks for $70K/piece (Chicago). I told them $100K/year was the floor for quality people and they balked.

Finding talent isn't the only challenge. Incentivizing them to join and stay is equally challenging.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#6

>can these companies really not get productive work of a slightly broader group? Relative to the 1/100 resumes-- if your friend took the time to dig deeper, he'd likely spot 2-3 diamonds in the rough, a moneyball misfit. If your friend is like most senior managers, he'll scoff at the idea-- 'I'm too busy to read 100 resumes' he'll likely say, or 'that's HRs job!' Finding & attracting talent is a mission critical comp…

It could be a resources problem. The company I'm about to leave wanted me to find 24x7 on-call DevOps folks for $70K/piece (Chicago). I told them $100K/year was the floor for quality people and they balked. Finding talent isn't the only challenge. Incentivizing them to join and stay is equally challenging.

Limited budget demands that you, get creative and dig-deeper still. Could a local QA guy get the job done in a pinch? Will your Ops support someone working remotely, even off-shore? Economical solutions require some flexibility.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be a resources problem. The company I'm about to leave wanted me to find 24x7 on-call DevOps folks for $70K/piece (Chicago). I told them $100K/year was the floor for quality people and they balked. Finding talent isn't the only challenge. Incentivizing them to join and stay is equally challenging.

Limited budget demands that you, get creative and dig-deeper still. Could a local QA guy get the job done in a pinch? Will your Ops support someone working remotely, even off-shore? Economical solutions require some flexibility.

Excellent points.

> Could a local QA guy get the job done in a pinch?

No. The requirement from management was that they were a Linux|Network|Sys/Admin or DevOps resource.

> Will your Ops support someone working remotely, even off-shore?

No. They were required to be in our office in the Chicago West Loop daily.

TL;DR My org wanted to pay below market rates yet still dictate shoot-the-moon requirements.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#8
This is interesting.

I screen a lot of ML researchers and engineers.

The process typically starts with a 30-90 minute phone screen (it ends faster if I don't like you). I start by discussing the company and the position, in as much depth as the candidate wants. Then we discuss one project of the candidate's in depth, both for some technical expertise but also to suss out what the candidate, as opposed to a team, actually did. Good candidates should be able to discuss what the project did, why, implementation, challenges, problems overcome, tools used, etc. Then we do a quick survey of general ML technologies; we're hiring senior people so they should have a pretty good breadth of experiences. So they should know their way around regression, trees, forests, boosting, svm, linear algebra techniques, plus optimization tricks for all of the above. It's ok if a candidate hasn't used any one specific thing, but they should have a rough knowledge of which tool to use when, plusses and minuses of tools, and the typical ways one improves results (hold-out testing, k-folds, l1 and l2 penalties, etc etc.) If you've actually used most of these tools you should easily pass the phone screen.

Then we bring people in or fly them out. Here, we go more into depth in several tools. You should know the math and the practical use of several ml techniques really well. We'll also make sure you can write enough code that you don't have to be handheld. That is, you need to be able to do some data processing and string together data pipelines to get your work done.

common resume failings include (NB: this is for an ML engineer / data scientist):

* (very common) no academic prep and no demonstrable experience. ie a potential junior person applying for a senior position. If he or she has no degree but spent 4 years at netflix or somewhere good, we'll definitely at minimum talk on the phone. Demonstrable experience definitely means education barely matters.

* you live abroad, thus requiring sponsorship and a move, and aren't a really strong candidate

* (surprisingly common) you spammed all our different jobs, making us believe you just want a job, any job, and paid no attention to what we're looking for

Common failings from a phone screen or interview include:

* (weird, but happens) don't make the agreed upon phone screen time without an email before (or even an email after, if an emergency occurred)

* (really weird, but happens) you have no idea what the company does. I'm looking for you to have spent at least 5 minutes reading our site and have a 1 sentence summary of what the company does. If you haven't done even that much research, why on earth is the candidate applying to us? A perfectly fine example would be, for example, if I worked at google: You build a search engine and you want ML people to improve search results. At, say, square, a great response would be "you're handling monetary transactions and therefore have fraud problems from card holders and probably want to build risk management tools to protect yourself from bad merchants." I find it really weird many people don't even know that much. This isn't an instant fail, but it's a negative sign.

* he or she wasted his or her phd. They may (or may not) have a very deep understanding of one tiny piece, but lack a decent understanding of the breadth of the field. We need breadth. And yes, they may be able to learn, but the question is then what the hell did they spend a 6 year phd learning? Also, we're hiring senior people. And again, anyone with a good ms in ml should do fine (not just a theory; we've hired them from stanford and ga tech).

* They don't know deeply at least one or two techniques and tools. Whether its hadoop, vowpal wabbit, R, sklearn, weka, whatever, you should have become an expert in at least one tool and know it inside and out.

* (very common) an inability to program enough. Obviously most ml people aren't engineers, but they have to be able to do data processing, data cleaning, run ml tools, build their own ml tools if necessary, etc. Senior people in yahoo or google's research labs may not need to program, but for us you do.

* (somewhat common) bad communication skills. We speak english; you need to be able to speak reasonably clear english so that we can discuss technical topics clearly. How people can finish a long stretch in an american university without this escapes me. And to be clear, about 1/2 the employees here are foreign born, so we're pretty good with different accents and the typical indian and chinese esl idiosyncrasies.

The last thing I can say about job seekers is we're talking because I have a problem. That is, I really want you to succeed if there's a good chance this will work.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#9
Sometimes its not the developer.

You can also blame it on an unrefined interview process. I've probably turned down the right candidates accidentally while trying to work out an interviewing system. With a startup, its hard to get enough feedback because you can't hire enough people to verify if your assumptions were correct.

Another issue to consider is unrealistic expectations for a candidate (has to know X, Y, Z frameworks + machine learning + mobile) If this candidate exists, you probably can't afford them.

For the rest of us, I strongly believe you can train most developers to do the job. It's how much time you're willing to invest in them. I've taken inexperienced developers that are very interested in the company vision and given them a chance to grow in the roles. After a year, they're the "good" developers I've always wanted.

Re: Ask HN: Who are the engineers that don't get hired?

#10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be a resources problem. The company I'm about to leave wanted me to find 24x7 on-call DevOps folks for $70K/piece (Chicago). I told them $100K/year was the floor for quality people and they balked. Finding talent isn't the only challenge. Incentivizing them to join and stay is equally challenging.

Limited budget demands that you, get creative and dig-deeper still. Could a local QA guy get the job done in a pinch? Will your Ops support someone working remotely, even off-shore? Economical solutions require some flexibility.

You're looking at this too rationally. That's not meant as snark. The people responsible for these requirements aren't acting rationally. They want Bill Gates, Microsoft CEO for the price of Bill Gates, Harvard Freshman. And if they can't find that person, they complain there's a shortage of good candidates.
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