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Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

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Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#1
TL;DR I made an iOS ecommerce app, along with backend server and a simple web-app POS system. My co-creator asked me to sign a standard NDA agreement except it specifies that I am an unpaid intern. My instinct tells me not to sign it.

Here is the whole story: I am a senior engineering student. This is my last semester at school, and I thought it would be an excellent experience to be in a venture course and try something different. The course is offered by the school's business school, and it is taken primarily by business students who have had professional experience and are seriously considering starting a venture. The speakers, pitches, and quality of the students' participation have been a great learning experience for me so far. My co-creator, an EMBA student, and I are taking the course as a way to iterate through our product and process. She is in charge of the business model, and I am doing the coding. Our professors urged everyone to start talking about equity splitting as soon as possible; and my co-creator had a really simple answer to that: "I should have 100%," she said. She knew that I had accepted a full-time offer prior to starting the class and that started this project with her because I saw it as a chance to learn more about business. So far, I am on my final testing of the iOS MVP app, getting ready to submit to app store anytime this week. Along with the app, I also wrote the backend to support all interactions for the iOS app, and another simple inventory POS web-app. She just sent me this NDA to sign, specifying that I enter the agreement as "an unpaid student intern". Everything else seems rather standard, but I'm not sure if I should sign it. Any thoughts?

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#2
I would consider explaining to her the following: 1. that the time to have negotiated that deal would have been prior to your doing all the work; 2. now that you have done it and have no obligation to sign this, she can't do anything with the work product without running the risk of your suing her for 50% ownership, which you would certainly do if anything came of it (and by the way, don't post the app, transfer the code, etc) 3. that you are open to any reasonable offer and will sign IP/tech assignment rights, post app, share code, etc. as appropriate if you reach agreement; 4. That she might want to consider this a business lesson of the sort they apparently don't teach in business school, and you won't charge her anything extra for it....

* = i'm assuming US or US-type legal framework here

(edited for formatting only)

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#3
Important: IANAL.

Now, it seems to me that there are two issues here: (1) Do you sign an NDA? (2) Do you represent yourself as an "unpaid student intern"?

(1) Do you sign an NDA?

First, you may call it "standard", but the real standard is to ask someone to sign an NDA before revealing information to them, so that they can weigh costs vs. benefits. Presenting an NDA to you at this point doesn't make sense.

Second, do you get any benefits from signing this NDA? I think not.

Third, "standard" does not mean "a good idea".

And fourth, what price do you pay by signing this NDA? If you decide you want to do something similar to this app in the future, are you not allowed to? Is your "co-creator" trying to limit the future use of your skills, your future business prospects, etc.?

Putting it all together, I think signing the NDA is a ridiculous idea, "standard" or not. I'd say a firm "no", and call it a learning experience for this person -- part of their business education.

(2) Do you present yourself as an "unpaid student intern"?

It sounds like your "co-creator" is asking for a gift. She wants you to give her the app and relinquish any claims on it.

Why would you do that? Well, altruism, I suppose, and perhaps the desire to rid yourself of any connections with someone with whom you should never have partnered in the first place.

But I see no reason whatsoever that you would be required to do that.

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EDIT: Or, to put it more bluntly, alkxa is right. See the comment by that user.

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#4
Not a lawyer, just a cynical person.

Do not sign anything she gives you, especially a NDA that says you are an unpaid intern. She is trying to fuck you over. Did she file papers for a LLC or the like? If so, whose name is on those papers? Did you file them with her? She could have took off your name. The State you live in probably offers a way to search for business entities and you can see the papers that were filed. [1] Does she have any of the code? Perhaps, you should consider not giving it to her. Absolutely do not host it on any servers or etc. that she has paid for. It seems like if you signed an NDA saying that you are an unpaid intern and she registered some sort of entity without listing you, she could say you were commissioned to do the work as an intern so you would have to give her the code. You gain nothing from signing the NDA. You need to tell your professor what is going on. Also, and I don't have a lot of experience with NDAs, isn't that something you usually sign before a project?

You might be thinking that all of this stress isn't worth a measly little school assignment and that you should just placate her by giving it all away. Do not dare do that. For all you know, she has been in talks with companies and has sales or prospective investors. Even if you already have a job and don't want to do a business, having equity is still worth something, especially so if the business blows up.

[1] I see you go to Columbia, so I assume you live in New York. Here you go. http://www.dos.ny.gov/corps/bus_entity_search.html

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#5
gut instinct is a wonderful thing, don't ignore it completely :)

this sounds like yet another case of a non-technical person trying to strong arm a developer/designer/the person that does actual product development into signing away their rights.

in my very limited experience and from others i know, unequal equity split for co-founders usually always ends up with someone becoming sour over time that they're not getting their fair share. you may not think you might be that person, but if the app takes off or somewhere down the line the company is acquired, would you be okay with not receiving a single penny?

don't sign anything without talking to a lawyer. if you don't know what you're signing, you might even be worse off than signing a "standard NDA".

you can always say no.

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#6
IANAL - It's always upsetting to see the 'idea-guys' knock the engineers, so here are my $0.02.

So who owns the IP? If you haven't created a legal entity where you have signed over the IP, then I think technically it is yours, or at least 50% yours.

If that's the case, signing something like this seems a little shady. If you call her your co-creator, that implies you are part of the creation process, and if that's the case, I feel that signing this may not be the best idea.

Additionally, I always think people should have the difficult conversations first, and I think by not signing this, it's not like you are fucking her over, but instead laying out a difficult conversation on the table. I think all founders should be comfortable having conversations in the beginning about equity, and if she isn't comfortable with that, remember that you are part of the reason the product exists to begin with.

On the other hand, if you want to give it, I agree with ggchappell -> it sounds like you're giving her a gift. Yet there is still no reason to sign something like this.

I don't see the signing of this document helping you in any way, but hey - IANAL.

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#7
Why would you even entertain signing it? Just say "no".

If you wrote this app without an agreement, it is yours and she'll have to negotiate with you. Tell her she can sign your license agreement. Unless you want to just be nice or whatever.

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#9
Do not sign. If she is not going to pay you or give you equity or a percent of app sales, that is a big red flag. Do not submit it to the app store either.

I would in fact talk it over with the Professor running the class or a student association lawyer. It looks like she is trying to gather evidence to suggest that you are not a cofounder after the fact. So you should assert your intellectual property rights for the code you created. In fact, not having a contracting agreement, or an employment agreement makes it more difficult for your cofounder to assert ownership anyway since there is nothing legally binding you together.

Re: Ask HN: Should I sign this agreement?

#10

Important: IANAL. Now, it seems to me that there are two issues here: (1) Do you sign an NDA? (2) Do you represent yourself as an "unpaid student intern"? (1) Do you sign an NDA? First, you may call it "standard", but the real standard is to ask someone to sign an NDA before revealing information to them, so that they can weigh costs vs. benefits. Presenting an NDA to you at this point doesn't make sense. Second, do…

It sounds like your "co-creator" is asking for a gift.

Cynical me thinks your colleague isn't asking for a gift but rather doing business as usual because "[the course] is taken primarily by business students who have had professional experience". Standard operating practice in business, your partner has learned, is to ask for the moon with cheese on top, and if that's too much it gets knocked down to proper size during negotiations or in the courts, if necessity demands. Besides, you are inexperienced, and your partner is not.

This is not a viable long-term strategy, and it's really dubious ethics, but since it's just an MBA class, and you won't have business dealings again, it's at least a rational strategy. What I'm saying is that the "rational economic actor" is a deeply amoral being, if not an immoral being, and it isn't worth dealing with such a thing.

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