Extra: What goes into building a international payments service like Paypal?
Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
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Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#2Having said that, I don't use PayPal when transacting with parties that I trust. In financial terms PayPal only captures about 15% or my business.
To answer your last question: It is a very large workload to establish relationships with banks and credit card companies in order to create a viable alternative to PayPal and then you still need to build up the user base. It can be done, but will take considerable resources and time to accomplish.
Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#3For instance here in South Africa, Stripe is not supported. As much as I would love to rather use Stripe it's just not an option for me unless I incorporated my business in the US with Atlas, which brings other headaches.
As CyberFonic has mentioned, building relationships with banks and credit card providers is a big undertaking. Which is probably why companies like Stripe opted for an Atlas-powered alternative for unsupported countries.
Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#4A LOT of bizdev and treasury work, a.k.a. doing things that's hard to scale. Let's take for example: paying out USD to NGN or IDR.
To be able to pay out in Nigeria/Indonesia in a reasonable time, you'd have to buy a lot NGN/IDR and keep that money in a bank account somewhere. You can't expect to keep wiring out USD to Nigeria because if you do, you're at the mercy of Wire Transfers and fees, it wouldn't be sustainable.
Now depending on the payout, what if they wanted to pay out on a different bank? You have to maintain balance on that different bank too. The money stuck in a country is called "float". If you're lucky, their banks are interconnected and you transfer easily, but if not, you're going to have a harder time.
That's why there's always a "3-5 banking days on withdrawal", it's not because of wiring out your actual cash, companies like Paypal are trying to manage their "float".
Here's what actually happens when someone issues a NGN Withdrawal on your app: depending on the bank on the said country, if they have online banking, you'll have to actually login on your bank account and transfer manually. Believe me, there are only a handful of banks that has Transfer APIs. For some, to even access them, you'd have to be licensed, regulated and have a good relationship.
What if the NGN withdrawal on your app was a cash pickup location? You'd be pressed to also maintain a relationship or talk with local payout providers. Not every popular bank or cash pickup company has an API. Sometimes you'll have to email them a spreadsheet of the "Withdrawals". They'll reply back and you'd have to update the "Withdrawal" status manually or build something that parses emails/CSV to update them.
Now you might be wondering 'I want to lessen stuck capital so that I can offer lower fees'. Depending on the country; you'd have to look for local providers called "Aggregators". These guys can be remittance, money transfer companies that handle local payouts for you. Bonus points: they're usually tech savvy and might provide an API. You maintain balance with them and they take care of the 'Last Mile' of paying out and are fully licensed (hopefully). They charge a fee, and depending on Paypal, they pass it unto you or bake it in with their margins. A side note USDNGN has a black market rate that's way better than the banks, maintaining balance with a bank might be less competitive vs finding an aggregator that can offer you USDNGN black market rates.
That's the basic gist for the treasury work. Legal work mainly is to actually open a bank account and keeping in line with a country's AMLA and KYC regulations are another cost. Otherwise they'll shutdown your bank accounts. Depending on the speed/red-tape of the government processes, you'd have to bake in legal fees and months of back and forth with government agencies.
I have just described Withdrawals. I haven't even begun to describe the hardship of "Deposits", because you're actually in-line with being a quasi-bank, which has another set of licenses, permits and fees.
This is just for 1 country. Every country has it's own quirks, what you did for Nigeria cannot be replicated to say, paying out in KRW or IDR. They will have different licenses, legal fees, aggregators and banks, cash pickups, bank account limits/thresholds, that you'll have to sort and scope out. Not to mention the amount of local competition. You'll also have to keep tabs of changes in regulation, national holidays or changes in a bank/aggregator's policies.
Hopefully this outlines why Paypal cannot be dethroned easily. Stripe is getting there, but otherwise you'd have to embed yourself and have enough float in 100+ countries to even match them or Western Union.
Source: I work as a senior engineer at a remittance startup.
Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#5Secure? That can be debated. But it is the fastest way to pay for your online purchases. I know you're coming from a different standpoint ('Why do e-commerce businesses still use Paypal?' would have been a better title in that case) but a lot of end users probably won't switch because it's easy to use.
Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#6Because in the "Third World" countries, PayPal may and sometimes is the only way to get foreign payments OR it's the only supported integration in many SAAS and apps. Many WordPress integrations has Stripe and PayPal as the only options. I'd love to pay less than 5% but in a cruel world I'd also rather pay 5% and get global income than to settle for less and no global option. For instance here in South Africa, Stripe…
Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#7It's great for small business owners that aren't doing a lot of volume, especially if you aren't running a cart system and just want to sell things on a basic website, sell stuff like art, sell stuff in person, buy stuff from people on reddit, ebay etc.
If you go a more traditional route you are going to have to have to apply to a credit card merchant, cough up an up-front fee that's probably 100$ or more, an annual fee, a per transaction set rate and then pay 2-5% of each transaction, end up getting slammed with 25-75$ (or more) chargeback fee and risk your rates going up if someone does a chargeback (instead of PayPal's dispute process) etc.
PayPal friends & family gets used like crazy in my office, we're far removed from Silicon Valley and I don't think anyone has ever even heard of Venmo here. We use it all the time to pay each other for lunch runs.
Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#8Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#9Re: Ask HN: Why does Paypal still exist?
#10> What goes into building a international payments service like Paypal? A LOT of bizdev and treasury work, a.k.a. doing things that's hard to scale. Let's take for example: paying out USD to NGN or IDR. To be able to pay out in Nigeria/Indonesia in a reasonable time, you'd have to buy a lot NGN/IDR and keep that money in a bank account somewhere. You can't expect to keep wiring out USD to Nigeria because if you do, y…