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Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

cactuscompute.com

81–90 of 175 posts

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#81
post #79

My first query: > Make it a little warmer in here. The reply: > "name": "set_thermostat", > "arguments": { > "temperature": 65, > "mode": "cool", > ... > "reasoning": "'warmer' implies need for cooling; set_thermostat with temperature 65 (typical warmth) and mode 'cool'.", Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

It's not a conversational model. It's meant as a local tool calling model.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#82
post #8
post #4

Funny result from the web demo. I'm well aware that it's an extremely small and, well, stupid, model, but even so: Query: HN Result: { "function_calls": [ { "name": "lock_door", "arguments": { "door": "front door" } } ], "reasoning": "User wants to lock the door. No specific door mentioned, so use 'front door' as default.", "confidence": 0 } I'd expect it to at least ignore (call no tools) for the queries that it doe…

The website says the model is for "tool calling, device use, and structured extraction". Your example just doesn't seem to be very relevant. FWIW, it did a pretty good job for tool calling when I tried it, and I think it could be pretty nice to have this running on locally and integrate with Home Assistant.

I think the test above is about tool calling... That's how I read it. The issue here is known as "out of distribution detection" in the old-timey classification world.

I am not sure how a micro model will fundamentally solve it. Would love to understand what dannyw and team did there?

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#83
post #79

My first query: > Make it a little warmer in here. The reply: > "name": "set_thermostat", > "arguments": { > "temperature": 65, > "mode": "cool", > ... > "reasoning": "'warmer' implies need for cooling; set_thermostat with temperature 65 (typical warmth) and mode 'cool'.", Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

It's not a conversational model. It's meant as a local tool calling model.

Yes, I think OP understands that. What he and many others in this thread are trying to understand is what makes this model useful.

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#84
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The website says the model is for "tool calling, device use, and structured extraction". Your example just doesn't seem to be very relevant. FWIW, it did a pretty good job for tool calling when I tried it, and I think it could be pretty nice to have this running on locally and integrate with Home Assistant.

I think the test above is about tool calling... That's how I read it. The issue here is known as "out of distribution detection" in the old-timey classification world. I am not sure how a micro model will fundamentally solve it. Would love to understand what dannyw and team did there?

How did you draw an association between dannyw and Cactus? There are no 'Danny's on the list of GH contributors nor is there one named in the paper. Just curious.

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#85
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

14mb? More like sub-$20 devices.

Most pi pico's come with 16mb of flash. I wonder what kind of performance that can eek out.

Well running from QSPI flash (even the internal memory versions use SPI internally) so any inference would be very slow streaming from that compared to RAM. The featured article says: “With a peak session RAM around 28MB, Needle runs on newer microcontrollers like ESP32-S3.” So I don’t see this doing anything useful on a Pico. The Pico 2 (RP2350) for example has 520k of RAM.

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#86

> turn on the tv { "function_calls": [ { "name": "lock_door", "arguments": { "door": "tv" } } ], "confidence": 0.0158 } Very interesting, seems confidence is 0 when tool calls are right?

You may want to reword that.. what do you think 0 confidence means... ?

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#87
What about use case for replacing regex? I.e "random formatted title.extension" - extract the title or some tag or something for more dynamic string manipulation for pulling structured data out of strings efficiently and more simply than regex provides?

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#89

Is there a prebuilt apk somewhere?

there are android binaries you can ship in your own app - https://huggingface.co/Cactus-Compute/needle2/tree/main

but if you're just looking for somewhere to try the model, use our in-browser playground! - https://cactuscompute.com/needle

Re: Show HN: Needle2: 14MB agentic LLM for phones, wearables, smart home and robots

#90
post #3

This is really cool, I'm curious how much knowledge can their be in smaller models? It seems the current trade off is you need sizeably larger models for more performance but I'm curious if in your work how far this is true, as edge ai is really what needs to get better before physical ai can take off (my two cents).

I imagine at such a low parameter count, there would be little to no world knowledge whatsoever, and the entire focus is on getting the structure of tool calling etc. right…? But yeah, in terms of “physical” AI, robotics definitely comes to mind for me as well, where tool calls/structured “device” use in a “realtime”/edge application are highly beneficial (if you wanted to go with LLMs), but beefy hardware can’t be e…

Roman from Cactus here -

yes you're right, there's only so much a 14MB model can do.

Needle excels at in-conext inference, with tightly defined environments. In our experience:

accurate descriptions + narrow tool scope = success

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