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What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

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Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#911

Post by burnte »

dan_q wrote: post #710
mawadev wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why we go down the route of "us" vs "them" type of thinking. Have you considered both sides to be an abstract kind of hell?

The "us" vs "them" thought pattern is the essence of "Western" (read: white, European, colonialist) culture, dating back to Plato's Republic. Marimba Ani's seminal work Yurugu is a sociological study of this culture from a non-western perspective. I can't recommend it strongly enough if you want to understand the nexus of social/psychological/epistemic factors that sustain the "us" vs "them" thought pattern and its c…

> The "us" vs "them" thought pattern is the essence of "Western" (read: white, European, colonialist) culture, dating back to Plato's Republic.

No, us vs them is an innate aspect of human psychology going back tens of millions of years. It is found in literally every single group of humans that numbers more than 20.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#912

Post by johnnyanmac »

THX1137 wrote: post #287
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #162

This dropped off the front page in the time I read it, I assume because of the controversial gate that favors upvotes to comments (which I am making worse by replying to others). It is a shame, because this really resonated with me. I've been working in tech for over 20 years now in various roles, and this is the least I have cared about it. I used to want to get better, and was constantly excited about learning new…

> forcing me to go out every day and talk to human beings face to face, even just little things like making sure I was showered and dressed every day This part is strange to me. I've worked from home for about 10 years and I've never once had an issue with twice-daily showering, meeting people face-to-face, going out for coffee, going outdoors, going to the gym, etc. The fact I can just go sit in a park, on a hiking…

> I'm surprised at people who tell me that they are isolated by home work when there are so many opportunities for social and natural connection everywhere...

It begs the question of "with who"? If you have family/spouses then it makes sense. if you have a social circle it comes down to if they are also wfh and have time to meetup for lunch or whatnot. Which is iffy these days. If you have no one... well, you don't have anyone taking you away from the computer and are tempted to just stay at your workstation. Nothing else is waiting for you.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#913

Post by johnnyanmac »

shimman wrote: post #904
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very jealous of you.

Unless you live in a self isolated monastery you have neighbors and the only person stopping you from making friends is yourself.

neighbors farther along in life than I. Story of my life, pretty much. I'm in an awkward gernation of being some 10 years older than a lot of other kidsa my parents were friends with. But still 15 ish years behind the parent generation with everyone having kids and families to tend to. And that's before getting into shared interests like tech or art or whatnot, which further filters out potential friends.

I dunno. Maybe this is simply the issues of a suburb where I'm clearly not at the heart of some urban sprawl.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#914

Post by johnnyanmac »

xlii wrote: post #85

Long long time ago people in tech were in tech because of the tech. Then, at some point, being in tech became a gilded profession and everyone: salesmen, artists, clerks etc. joined in. Not because they wanted to be in tech. They wanted gold. For years it was working, but right now things shifted. You can no longer just do the thing you learned for a job and continue doing so, because landscape shifted. So they're mi…

>For people I know who are in tech for the tech nothing changed

I'd say I'm in tech for tech. Everything changed, the social contract was defiled. The gold rush was always temporary, but the act of "getting a job in tech" (which was already an excessive process) became a wild goose chase itself. I can't even just hope for a boring bank job making 90k anymore (which was always told as my reassurance "if all else fails). We're just in a broken system, now.

My goals aren't derailed, but my career sure was.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#915

Post by johnnyanmac »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #568
pydry wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For people I know who are in tech for the tech nothing changed. Yeah it did. The environments became a lot more toxic and the decisions became a lot more stupid. I also miss working with people who actually cared about the craft. They exist on the IC level but they're burned out and on the executive level it's mostly just insecure morons these days.

It’s great to care about the craft as long as someone else is paying for it. I think most software developers are waking up to the reality that they were always just holding business at ransom with their craft. Software is a grudge purchase for businesses. No one has ever cared about the craft except the craftsmen.

I feel like that applies to all labor. labor is just business at ransom with productivity that they themselves cannot (or do not want) to do. If they could automate out humanity tomorrow, they would.

In comes the snake oil salesmen telling them they can finally do this. Of course they will fall for the notion, even if they know it's not true. It's what they want oh so badly to be true.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#916

Post by johnnyanmac »

sluggishpudding wrote: post #833
zulban wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See translator jobs getting wiped out. Nobody even blinked an eye, it didn't spark any discussion, no deep thoughts were had. Whenever someone writes something like this "nobody talks about it, nobody cared" I always think that just tells you more about the media sources and community of the author (you) than anything else. Of course people talked about it. They are still talking about it. Of course they cared. The…

Nah. OP's real point is that people didn't talk about translators _enough_. Of course people in the circle are devastated and are screaming at the top of their lungs right now, but at a societal level no one cared enough to for example seriously consider policy changes (like UBI for example).

In that context, a couple of programmers yelling about this on HN also isn't enough. If the group was big enough, we'd hear more talks from policy makers about it. But it's not.

Clearly the tech industry isn't big enough (nor at least, in enough lockstep enough) to push back against this either. So we're still the same as the translators.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#917

Post by JohnMakin »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #577
JohnMakin wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry if I am being uncharitable, but are you saying the solution to depression is that people’s friends groups (which the depressed person may not have access to to begin with) is to just like, bully them out of it? lol? Tell me you’ve never had a depressive episode without telling me. hint: the people with support groups in the first place are less vulnerable and bullying depression doesn’t really help, I could…

You are being uncharitable. In fact, you're demonstrating the dynamics I spoke of in my post. I could give you a detailed response but, given your tone, instead I'll say: assume the best and don't make everything about yourself. Several people I know have struggled with negative mental health effects of finding themselves in a caretaker role for a mentally ill friend or partner. In my experience offline groups (not i…

depression is not the same as clinical mental illness. one is a symptom, one is a disease. your delusion seems to be that it can be reasoned and talked through which I interpreted by how you expressed that as bullying (it is). it can’t be reasoned with. I’m making nothing about myself - don’t really appreciate that projection by the way - I am not a depressed person, but have also been in the situation of caretaking for someone who has experienced this. I can’t even imagine acting on the reckless advice you’ve posted here. but thanks for the tone policing. have a good day.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#918

Post by atkion »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #802
jvidalv wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small forums is the answer. In spain they are still popular and after some time it feels like an small town in the good sense, you know everyone and everyone knows you. Of course small forums will not IPO

Tildes is nice, Hubski's a nice slow and thoughtful

Thanks for the rec, I hadn't heard of it but Tildes looks very pleasant.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#919

Post by johnnyanmac »

uncivilized wrote: post #432
brushfoot wrote: post #373

"Knowledge work is mostly pointless" is the author's view, so his article (the fruit of knowledge work) should be measured by it. Amd that sentiment is hardly surprising, coming as it does from a Director of AI Operations (his title on LinkedIn).

Do you disagree that your work is pointless?

I make games, so I was never under the illusion that I was saving the world. But at the same time, art moves you, inspires you, reflects your culture, and overall has its own invisible tug on society.

You can definitely argue my work isn't essential. I'd never say my work is pointless.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#920

Post by johnnyanmac »

zmmmmm wrote: post #899

I will say here that there are meaningful jobs that especially tech people can engage with. There are gigantic unsolved problems. Climate change, cancer, thousands of rare disorders with no therapy or even good diagnostics. And many of these fields have actual roles for technical people to fill and usually can't find highly qualified people to do them because a software eng salary is far out of reach of the average r…

>Before burning out, retiring or checking out altogether, I really recommend people look at the concept of halving your salary and taking a job that still employs your skills but is directly attached to actual meaning.

I'm trying. No one is hiring and the interviews I got seem to fall through much faster than they would have 4 years prior (despite having more experience).

My peak earnings were 160k, and 80k (plus my freelancing gigs) would be more than enough for me to pick myself up. But all I see locally in LA for my skillset (mostly C++) is defense, defense, defense. And all those want higher and higher clearance these days, too (I have none).

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