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University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

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Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#81

Post by porridgeraisin »

alephnerd wrote: post #35
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

^^^ This. 100% This. This kind of applicant is now treated as table stakes for programs like UMich, and acceptance rates for impacted majors like CS in top programs have dropped to single digits. It is ridiculously competitive to get into top programs now. I got into an Ivy in the late 2000s to early 2010s. With my stats from back then (13 APs all 4s and 5s, a 4.5+ GPA, varsity wrestling, JV XCountry, NHS, CSF, USAPH…

Then why is getting into M.S programs much easier? The GRE is barely an exam and it's not like you need to go to an IIT or do any olympiads to get into columbia or a good UC. Yes in principle you have fewer applicants than bachelors, but that would be compensated by the fact that indians and chinese students also apply no?

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#82

Post by porridgeraisin »

estearum wrote: post #21
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

I'm all for not diluting anything but dropping first semester/year grades is unlikely to cause any major issue IMO. You can encourage lighter electives maybe and remove some elective requirements from later in the course. Already first year courses are fairly generic/light anyways. The purpose is simply to ramp up the competitiveness the same way school itself ramps up over the years. Pretending school momentum carries over to college is just stupid.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#83

Post by alephnerd »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #81
alephnerd wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^ This. 100% This. This kind of applicant is now treated as table stakes for programs like UMich, and acceptance rates for impacted majors like CS in top programs have dropped to single digits. It is ridiculously competitive to get into top programs now. I got into an Ivy in the late 2000s to early 2010s. With my stats from back then (13 APs all 4s and 5s, a 4.5+ GPA, varsity wrestling, JV XCountry, NHS, CSF, USAPH…

Then why is getting into M.S programs much easier? The GRE is barely an exam and it's not like you need to go to an IIT or do any olympiads to get into columbia or a good UC. Yes in principle you have fewer applicants than bachelors, but that would be compensated by the fact that indians and chinese students also apply no?

> Then why is getting into M.S programs much easier?

Because domestic undergrads applying to a research-oriented grad program are advised to apply directly to a PhD program.

MS/MA programs are expected to remediate deficiencies at the undergrad level, and most undergrads will take 1st year MS/MA classes as part of their senior year doing a bachelors. Alternatively, the MS/MA is awarded if a PhD candidate failed Quals.

Outside the US, the expected path is BA/BSc/BEng/BTech to MS/MA/MTech/MPhil to PhD.

In the US, the expected path is SB/AB to PhD and MS/MA if you fail quals or are looking for a professional program to remediate coursework deficiencies.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#84

Post by dividefuel »

I'm not sure how to feel about this.

On the one hand, this is good for people who need time to adapt to college. It's a big change, especially for young people who are living apart from family for the first time. You have to adapt to living alone AND an entirely new social environment AND a much more independent/rigorous academic environment all at once.

On the other, it may just delay the same result. If someone knows their first semester doesn't really count, they may not put in the time to adapt, then crash out anyway in the second semester when it becomes real. I also feel our society tries a little too hard to insulate young people from failure, and I wonder whether that means people avoid learning important lessons earlier.

I guess the biggest advantage is it lets someone spread the growth out over a little more time rather than getting railroaded at once. This approach is probably most useful for someone who is genuinely trying and struggling, rather than for someone who is not really putting in any effort. It's probably better to help the former, so overall it's probably a reasonable approach.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#85

Post by porridgeraisin »

alephnerd wrote: post #83
porridgeraisin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why is getting into M.S programs much easier? The GRE is barely an exam and it's not like you need to go to an IIT or do any olympiads to get into columbia or a good UC. Yes in principle you have fewer applicants than bachelors, but that would be compensated by the fact that indians and chinese students also apply no?

> Then why is getting into M.S programs much easier? Because domestic undergrads applying to a research-oriented grad program are advised to apply directly to a PhD program. MS/MA programs are expected to remediate deficiencies at the undergrad level, and most undergrads will take 1st year MS/MA classes as part of their senior year doing a bachelors. Alternatively, the MS/MA is awarded if a PhD candidate failed Quals…

Makes sense

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#86

Post by shibapuppie »

throwitaway222 wrote: post #43
consensus1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really want the upper echelons of society to be made up of neurotic workaholics? Do we really want universities to be gate keepers here at all?

We want no more universities, as it's just producing socialists unless you're in math / sciences, and if you're in the sciences it's wasting productive time in industry.

Oh no, socialism.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#88

Post by raddan »

estearum wrote: post #58
raddan wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Is that what it’s about? Keep in that the University of Michigan is a public university, explicitly founded to “provide the inhabitants of this state with the means of acquiring a thorough knowledge of the various branches of literature, science, and the arts.” There’s nothing about being elite in there at all. This is an institution that serves the pub…

All universities are for the elites. I would love for that not to be the case, but the only reason admissions are this competitive is because there's competition for limited slots. And yes, certainly a (traditional) university education should not be required for having good career opportunities. IMO there's a need for a type of education that's vastly more scalable and still equips people with the beyond-secondary e…

I’m not sure where you get the idea that all universities are competitive because that is simply untrue. Many public universities are required by state legislatures to broadly admit students from their own state. California is a good example. You can see incoming class statistics here: https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/entering-class-...

Competitive universities are competitive. Sometimes that competiton is justified and sometimes it is unjustifiably based on pedigree. The program I attended before getting my PhD at a public university was at a well-known private university. But in terms of research productivity and impact, the public university was a MUCH better place to go to school. The PhD program was exceptionally competitive but its undergrad program was not. As a result, many undergrads who wandered through our lab door got a first-class research experience.

I’m not going to pretend that pedigree doesn’t matter (to some people), but it is emphatically not the same thing as “a good preparation.” I took a couple math classes one summer at a low-tier state college. They were just as good as any math classes I took at any of the other places I went to school, public or private.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#89

Post by Loughla »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #79
tptacek wrote: post #17

Having put two kids through college now: this makes sense. First semester grades are a shitshow anyways, and aren't especially predictive. The first semester at an R1 is utterly unlike any ordinary high school experience and a lot of what you're measuring is just kids getting their sea legs. What's the point? If it's causing drama, just get rid of it.

Do you see this as a self management issue or a course intensity issue. My anecdotal experience with the University of California system was that course load was a step down from Highschool university prep (which wasn't that bad). Classes were easier than their AP counterparts, and most students who struggled had an issue with attending morning classes after late nights socializing. My impression from family going th…

I've worked in colleges for 2 decades. It's rarely purely academic issues that cause bad grades, in my experience.

It's everything else with self regulation. Where most college prep goes wrong is at home, in not allowing appropriate agency for the child to make decisions before college. When you go from having to ask to go to the bathroom to being entirely independent in 2 months, bad shit happens.

This lesson has held true everywhere I've worked, from small junior colleges to D1 state schools.

Subsequently, college has gotten harder, but so has k-12, so proportionately, no it's not more difficult now

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#90

Post by Jtsummers »

GlibMonkeyDeath wrote: post #66
Jtsummers wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has the knock-on effect that it becomes impossible to excel in your first semester. No, it eliminates the grade and GPA award for excelling. You can still excel, unless you absolutely require external validation for your work. And even then, it's still college, professors notice top performers even if they aren't giving them an A+++++ and have to give them a Pass instead.

In my opinion you are under-appreciating the external validation. Removing grades disincentives excelling. Why work any harder than getting a "pass"? At the larger schools (like Michigan), professors (if a professor is actually grading the class, and not an adjunct or grad student) are hardly going to remember individual performances on freshman exams, or even pay much attention.

This is one semester, not all, and they still will be getting individual marks (necessary to determine final grade). They can excel if they want to, and they'll have external signals if that's what they need. It just won't be reflected in their GPA for that semester. Oh no, the horror.
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