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No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

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Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#71

Post by embedding-shape »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #67

What are you talking about? I can make a Myst-class game by next weekend, for practically no money. The audience won't like it because they have beef with the tools I'd choose to use, but that's a them problem, not a me problem. Maybe I'm God's gift to game design but I just suck at art. They'll never know, I guess.

> Maybe I'm God's gift to game design but I just suck at art.

I feel like unless you've grokked that art (and most importantly art direction) is also important to communicate the game design to the player, then you clearly aren't god's gift to game design :)

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#72

Post by maccard »

nucleogenesis wrote: post #47
rdbl27 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that these same people can't tell whether it was authored by a human or an AI without a seperate disclosure is strong evidence that human authorship as such is not what they value at all.

I can tell you I hate more than anything when I’m lied to. Some AI art could be fantastic (haven’t seen anything yet but I’m sure it’ll happen someday). I don’t want something you prompted an AI for because genuinely I could just do that myself. The barrier to entry is nil. I’m not interested in the idea an artist has I’m interested in how they execute it. If they executed it through human effort then I place a much…

Generally anti AI person who is a game dev here:

> The lines might blur if an artist uses an AI to manipulate their own art that they made.

Where’s the line? Is using tools in maya and photoshop to rapidly speed up asset generation ok?

> I could never have that appreciation for something a machine generated.

Do you feel the same about PCG?

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#73

Post by jayd16 »

rdbl27 wrote: post #26
tsimionescu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because code is utilitarian, it is only valued for what it does, while art is not utilitarian - it is valued for subjective human reasons, which, for many people, include human authorship. It's the same reason people build their games out of code libraries, but generally design bespoke art for it (with some exceptions).

The fact that these same people can't tell whether it was authored by a human or an AI without a seperate disclosure is strong evidence that human authorship as such is not what they value at all.

Just because it takes effort or time to tell a fake doesn't mean its not important.

If you buy a fake that looks extremely close but falls apart a month later, that doesn't mean you don't care.

If art is visually polished in some way such that quick quality cues are handled that doesn't mean that it will actually have a meaning or a message. You won't know until you have a chance to fully consume it.

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#74

Post by justinhj »

galangalalgol wrote: post #18
bob1029 wrote: post #13

The biggest issue is that it has become very accessible to approach AA quality in a solo setting. The jump from indie to AA is much more plausible than the jump from AA to AAA. The middle of the market is in a gigantic space trash compactor right now. I could sit down with one other level designer / environmental artist and create something that would be visually competitive with Myst in record time using modern tool…

Why is using it for code more acceptable than for art? I can't imagine we aren't already seeing tons of both in indie games. Maybe aaa too? Is there any ramification for leaving off the disclosure, or adding one? Personally if the gameplay is good I kind of don't care if it used lots of ai.

As a former game coder who worked before there were game engines the attitude depresses me. Game programming was an inventive and creative art and the models that are spewing out barely playable imitations of games are using all that code we put out there, just as they are using all the art. Same is true of game designs.

I think we should be making games with AI however. I just don't think art is special; we have all been robbed and now we should all use the new tools that are the result of that robbery.

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#75

Post by cubefox »

volkk wrote: post #19
sgt wrote: post #11

Games is one of those industries that I can't fathom how to do profitably, and that's why I'm not a game designer. There's just so much competition and I don't really understand the market either.

i just think its extremely difficult to make a game that's good. i feel like most indie studios/solo developers that complain their game doesn't get any downloads or playtime is because their game is likely...bad. i have yet to bump into a story where an actually great game goes undiscovered. happy to be proven wrong!

> i have yet to bump into a story where an actually great game goes undiscovered. happy to be proven wrong!

That's an unfalsifiable hypothesis. If I point you to one of these games, you can just say "but it wasn't actually good, otherwise it would have been more successful" or "the fact that you know about it shows that it was at least somewhat successful".

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#76

Post by bob1029 »

HeavyStorm wrote: post #64
tsimionescu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because code is utilitarian, it is only valued for what it does, while art is not utilitarian - it is valued for subjective human reasons, which, for many people, include human authorship. It's the same reason people build their games out of code libraries, but generally design bespoke art for it (with some exceptions).

As a professional coder, I both agree and deeply hate this position. And code indeed has its values. See all algorithms invented by Carmack like BSPs, z-fail, etc.

> See all algorithms invented by Carmack

The problem is very few (none?) of them actually were. He was just a wizard at applying them. This furthers the utilitarian argument.

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#77

Post by somenameforme »

staplers wrote: post #57
volkk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i just think its extremely difficult to make a game that's good. i feel like most indie studios/solo developers that complain their game doesn't get any downloads or playtime is because their game is likely...bad. i have yet to bump into a story where an actually great game goes undiscovered. happy to be proven wrong!

i have yet to bump into a story where an actually great game goes undiscovered. By the very nature of it, you wouldn't...

But I think this also goes the other way as well. Even the most reclusive dev hermit can get some people to try out their game, and people love a hidden gem, and love talking about it. It makes it quite impractical for a genuinely great game to remain just undiscovered.

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#78

Post by jayd16 »

volkk wrote: post #19
sgt wrote: post #11

Games is one of those industries that I can't fathom how to do profitably, and that's why I'm not a game designer. There's just so much competition and I don't really understand the market either.

i just think its extremely difficult to make a game that's good. i feel like most indie studios/solo developers that complain their game doesn't get any downloads or playtime is because their game is likely...bad. i have yet to bump into a story where an actually great game goes undiscovered. happy to be proven wrong!

I've seen a lot of good games killed by large studios because they feel the opportunity cost is too great, despite being profitable.

Mediocre games also happen to blow up all the time. So I'm sure there's a lot of sentiment around not getting that lucky.

I also think it's a spectrum. You need a good enough game and to be lucky.

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#79

Post by mh- »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #10
functionmouse wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's that Myst was released in a hungry, undersaturated market, and the competition is a lot tougher now. I truly love what Cyanworlds is doing, but the fact of the matter is, I'd rather be playing TF2 Classic, or Animal Well, or Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, than Obduction. Another problem is, their games were popular at a time when most people didn't even have an internet connection, and therefore had far…

Myst was also bundled with a lot of PCs. Perhaps as a cheap way to show off CDROM capabilities. Getting games installed and working in that era was often a chore. So when people sat down to play, it was already there for them. Myst's sequels didn't sell as well as the first, despite the power of the brand, either. Likely because of competition.

It was a ton of people's first exposure to "interactive multimedia", as I recall it being positioned at the time. I remember seeing both Myst and 7th Guest [0] in similar showcases in computer stores.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_7th_Guest

Re: No one can afford to make Myst games anymore

#80

Post by Ekaros »

volkk wrote: post #19
sgt wrote: post #11

Games is one of those industries that I can't fathom how to do profitably, and that's why I'm not a game designer. There's just so much competition and I don't really understand the market either.

i just think its extremely difficult to make a game that's good. i feel like most indie studios/solo developers that complain their game doesn't get any downloads or playtime is because their game is likely...bad. i have yet to bump into a story where an actually great game goes undiscovered. happy to be proven wrong!

Bar is actually higher than bad. You have to be above mediocre even. As PC player I have decades of games easily accessible. You really need to get to at least top 25% of that if not much higher.

People complain that games get rated 7/10. But I think more so 7/10 is often bare minimum of game worth dedicating time for unless you really low the genre or specific thing. So while average game would be 5/10. An average game that is worth buying and sells is actually more so 7/10.

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