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U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

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Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#401

Post by reaperducer »

randusername wrote: post #372

This is a bewildering article and discussion. Grades and academic performance are outcomes. They're indirect stressors at best; why would one generation suddenly be unable to cope? The real story is what has changed to increase the stakes of grades. I suspect freshmen are taking out historic debt to contend with food, housing, and tuition costs meanwhile the entry-level job market is extraordinarily competitive. Ther…

The real story is what has changed to increase the stakes of grades. I suspect freshmen are taking out historic debt to contend with food, housing, and tuition costs meanwhile the entry-level job market is extraordinarily competitive.

Money is the easy excuse.

The root of the problem is that many of them simply are not ready for college for a variety of reasons from parent coddling to defunded primary schools to the reduced ability to think abstractly and with foresight due to the lack of long-form reading.

I know on HN, every reflex is to blame money in one form or another. But there's plenty of blame to go around.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#402

Post by estearum »

vel0city wrote: post #339
estearum wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All universities are for the elites. I would love for that not to be the case, but the only reason admissions are this competitive is because there's competition for limited slots. And yes, certainly a (traditional) university education should not be required for having good career opportunities. IMO there's a need for a type of education that's vastly more scalable and still equips people with the beyond-secondary e…

Isn't that need of post-secondary education "solved" by community colleges? Extremely cheap for locals, usually offering degree/certification programs especially relevant to employers in the area, extremely lax requirements, etc?

In theory yes, in practice it seems empirically like the answer is no. I'm not sure if it's just a vibes/branding problem or what. But yeah I think much larger and more capable community colleges and smaller universities is probably closer to ideal.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#403

Post by estearum »

somenameforme wrote: post #318
estearum wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because having money is a lot better than not having money

I think it's more that if one doesn't really think one way or the other then life is very much a conveyor belt, and that belt will typically push you into college. And if you're going to go to college, why not go to the best that you can?

Universities are still very good investments for most people who go to them

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#404

Post by ratelimitsteve »

They're not getting rid of grades, they're just moving everything to pass/fail rather than letter grades. Afaic this is really just a reflection of the reality on the ground. You either get a C or better and move on to the next level, or you don't. Passing with a C fulfills the prerequisite just as well as passing with an A. Then eventually you either get a C or better in all the classes you need to graduate, or you don't. Cs get degrees. Then you go to the job market and you either have a degree or you don't. Outside of some extremely competitive internships no one cares how you graduated, only whether you did.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#405

Post by estearum »

uncivilized wrote: post #400
estearum wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competition continues to rise for limited higher education slots. The solution is not to get rid of the measurements we use to decide who should occupy those slots, it's to add more slots (and ideally , also create viable career/life opportunities that do not require a super-expensive education to begin with). Can you explain how that's "socially unaware" or "one-dimensional"?

Well your comment had nothing to do with what you’ve written now. There’s a reason why it’s flagged now.

It's flagged because there are crybabies in this thread lol

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#406

Post by ratelimitsteve »

randusername wrote: post #372

This is a bewildering article and discussion. Grades and academic performance are outcomes. They're indirect stressors at best; why would one generation suddenly be unable to cope? The real story is what has changed to increase the stakes of grades. I suspect freshmen are taking out historic debt to contend with food, housing, and tuition costs meanwhile the entry-level job market is extraordinarily competitive. Ther…

is one generation suddenly unable to cope or did we just recognize that this has been a long-standing source of stress and maladaptive behavior and finally decide to do something about it?

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#407

Post by ratelimitsteve »

Aurornis wrote: post #187
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

> When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, My neighborhood and social circle have a number of high school age children, some aiming for high ranking universities. None of them have these grueling 15 hour day schedules you’re describing. I don’t even know of a high school around me that starts at 7:30AM. What unive…

I was at school from 6:45 AM to about 4:30 PM every day, and had extracurriculars and homework on top of that. This wasn't considered an extra stressful or difficult schedule, it was just what you did.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#408

Post by antonymoose »

collabs wrote: post #253
giantg2 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a state school. The quality varied wildly depending on the department. It was very eye opening in the general English/writing classes when encountering people who couldn't read or write above a 4th grade level. The difference between they're, their, and there was like a riddle to some of them. Of course many didn't make it more than a semester or two. That's the big thing - the college might be dropping the…

> The quality varied wildly depending on the department. I feel like it has always been this way. I went to a small private university. The natural sciences and especially the pre-med students had their days fully packed, like the only time you could even have a moment to talk about anything was at the cafeteria during meals. Then there was the business department. The college athletes apparently picked business as a…

I feel like the prevailing story you would hear “back in the day” was always the star quarterback or the kid of a rich donor getting white-glove treatment. Instead my experience matched GP, handful of students complaining that a tree-balancing exercise is “too harsh” and getting the entire assignment slashed by the professor being pressed to increase the size of the department.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#409

Post by dekhn »

"The tyranny of soft expectations"

I was intensely stressed through high school and undergrad, then later in grad school, postdoc, full time job as computer scientist, then as a SWE. It wasn't pleasant but it drove me to achieve at far higher levels, in ways that paid off well in the long run (like financial stability and earlier retirement). Note: in undergrad, I specifically went to a school that did not have grades but still felt all the stress to perform.

I suspect that as unpleasant as stress is, it ultimately can make us better people.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#410

Post by 7402 »

wredcoll wrote: post #381
randusername wrote: post #372

This is a bewildering article and discussion. Grades and academic performance are outcomes. They're indirect stressors at best; why would one generation suddenly be unable to cope? The real story is what has changed to increase the stakes of grades. I suspect freshmen are taking out historic debt to contend with food, housing, and tuition costs meanwhile the entry-level job market is extraordinarily competitive. Ther…

Famously places like china/india/japan/etc have extremely traumatic final exams. There was just an article about suicides from some kind of (indian?) final exam screw up. It doesn't take much of a logical leap to associate it with the pressure put on the children taking the tests. Presumably that kind of pressure ia coming to america.

children?

Showing my age here, I guess. Fifty years ago, 18-year-olds in college were referred to as "men" and "women."

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