Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

btp.police.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 501 posts

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#311

Post by WalterBright »

america_sux wrote: post #298
WalterBright wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our high standard of living is due to machines doing the work rather than humans.

Not all machines lead to increase in the standard of living, and many things that would improve the standard of living are not done. At some point the argument you have made becomes irrelevant and cliched.

> Not all machines lead to increase in the standard of living

I did not say "all" machines. If I had meant "all" I would have written "all". That's what the word "all" is for.

Consider: "people like ice cream" Riposte: "not everybody likes ice cream"

I see this kind of response over and over here. It's cliched and irrelevant.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#312

Post by t_luke »

retube wrote: post #162

Lots of moaning about this in the comments but no real explanation as to what the objection is beyond vague references to "privacy". What is the actual risk to me as an innocent person going about their daily business? If it helps identify perpetrators of crime what's the issue? Comments here seem like an ideological kneejerk response.

Literally all normal people on the tube already pay with bank card or Apple Pay and are thus trackable anyway. This just levels the playing field for the barrier pushers.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#313

Post by altacc »

steve_gh wrote: post #43
Traster wrote: post #13

I really don't understand why they do trials for this. What would be the failure case for the trial? "We carried out the trial for 6 weeks over X period of time, we arrested Y people, at that rate we've decided this is not compatible with modern liberal democracy, we would've traded a free society for Y+2 arrests over X period but we just didn't quite get there"? As suggested by other people - this is just going to b…

It's a technology. What you could do with it, and what you should do with it are completely different things. If you follow the links there is a lot of information about the trial, including a whole series of documents identifying the legal framework that authorises LFR, including rationale under GDPR, Data Protection etc. Of course, this technology could be used for bad purposes. But within a democracy, policing hap…

Putting it kindly, this is an incredibly optimistic interpretation of how historically the government and police have used their powers. There is a long and consistent history of UK police abusing powers, stretching legal definitions and using technology to target those outside the original mandate of a law or investigation.

Antiterrorism and anti-disorder laws sold to the public as needed to prevent serious threats have been used extensively outside of what I think most would consider reasonable to surveil people, restrict freedoms and harass. The prime example are the stop and search laws, used to search a large numbers of people, predominantly based on racial stereotype, with zero impact on terrorism.

Remember that the Met police is known to be institutionally racist & sexist. It is not an organisation to be trusted.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#314

Post by artisinal »

al_borland wrote: post #263
artisinal wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The savings that a store has from self checkouts far outweigh the shoplifting it attracts. I don’t see what the cameras add. Do stores review camera footage at the end of the day and then hunt down the offenders?

They can catch legitimate mistakes. I had this happen about a week ago. I scanned something, thought I heard the beep, then put it in the bag. It stopped me and replayed the video. I looked at the item list and sure enough, it didn't scan. It was an honest mistake, and the camera caught it. I rescanned it after the attendant cleared the error. I've also had it flag when it thinks there is more stuff in my cart when g…

I didn’t know the cameras did that! Very dystopian. Smart that the guy found a bypass.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#315

Post by Cider9986 »

juiceland wrote: post #276
hammock wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Supermarkets in the UK point cameras at your face at self-checkout. Just want to add, the overhead cameras at checkout are pointed straight down and can read your phone password as you put it in to pull up Apple Pay.

I wish that Apple would make a way to require both FaceID and a passcode. This seems like an easy option to add.

GrapheneOS has Touch ID and a passcode as an option.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#316

Post by nly »

hammock wrote: post #271
_fw wrote: post #53

It’s a moot point. I’m saddened at the invasion of privacy and the intrusion on an individual’s civil liberties, but anonymous travel on the London Underground died when they made bank cards and contactless the primary way to get through the barriers. I’m not saying that “this doesn’t matter because it’s slightly worse than before”. I’m saying the frog has been boiling for a long time. I don’t want people being surpr…

> Supermarkets in the UK point cameras at your face at self-checkout. Just want to add, the overhead cameras at checkout are pointed straight down and can read your phone password as you put it in to pull up Apple Pay.

Don't 99% of people just use face or fingerprint unlocking?

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#317

Post by nly »

WalterBright wrote: post #221
windowliker wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oyster is still anonymous, in the sense that no details are required to buy a card, and it can be topped up using cash. The cards can be returned or disposed of as necessary. But as you say, it knows your movements at least in so far as your entry and exit point in the system, with a timestamp, though you can use a separate card for each if you don't mind paying the full fare that gets charged when a journey is 'inco…

Self-checkout at the grocery store is a major vector for shoplifting. That's why the cameras are there. If I was running such a store, I wouldn't want to spend the money on those cameras. But alas, the money is well spent in stopping thieves. I was talking to one of the staff in a grocery store a while ago. He said the corporate auditors came in one day and decided to review the security cams. The result was half the…

These businesses chose lower staffing costs knowing full well the price would be higher theft.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#318

Post by meh2frdf »

danw1979 wrote: post #75
dandaka wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what happened in Moscow after same tech was launched. It is much 'safer' on streets, since every entrance door and traffic intersection is equipped with cameras now. But I pick Portugal's approach every time — no public cameras, no dashcams, it is forbidden to record private persons in public without permission.

I’m in Portugal with kids right now and I can not think of a country where dashcams would be more useful. The standard of driving and adherence to the law of the roads is some of the worst I’ve encountered in Europe. I haven’t let go of my 9yo’s hand since we arrived in Porto a few days ago. Speeding is chronic and nobody gives a shit for the safety of you or your children here.

The driving in Portugal is notoriously bad, yeah maybe not such a concern in your tourist experience in Lisbon center, because you can't really go fast. Get out on the motorways and country roads and your opinion will soon change.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#319

Post by nly »

dofm wrote: post #59
_fw wrote: post #53

It’s a moot point. I’m saddened at the invasion of privacy and the intrusion on an individual’s civil liberties, but anonymous travel on the London Underground died when they made bank cards and contactless the primary way to get through the barriers. I’m not saying that “this doesn’t matter because it’s slightly worse than before”. I’m saying the frog has been boiling for a long time. I don’t want people being surpr…

> Your ISP proactively shares your web history with the state. Citation please. "Proactively" is just untrue.

Internet Connection Records is the key phrase to search for

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#320

Post by lowbloodsugar »

dofm wrote: post #65
_fw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a mature and considered take. But I’m sure you’ll agree: incompetence is not a reliable defence. So what happens when using and optimising these systems becomes a priority for the state? The apparatus is there, and capabilities can catch up to opportunities it presents.

I have to tell you I am not that bothered. Twice I nearly lost my father to terrorism in London. (Sliding Doors commuter moments both times — by sheer chance not being in the very usual place at the very usual time). I remain pretty relaxed about the idea that people who wish to bomb trains and tubes and buses can't get across London without the awareness that they could be tracked. You cannot live your life paranoid…

> You cannot live your life paranoid

Agree! Life is so much better.

> Twice I nearly lost my father to terrorism in London.

Oh. You just don’t know the definition of the word “paranoia”.

Post reply on HN