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A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

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Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#31

Post by ericd »

OldSchool wrote: post #15
gwittel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern heat pumps easily keep efficiency below freezing. Ours goes to 22F before there’s any efficiency drop. A different model goes below 0F (we just didn’t need it). But yes, many makers push the crappier old tech models that bail around 50F.

Mine are from 2011, R410a and on the rare occasion that it gets to 22F here in Austin, they are painfully ineffective!

I installed a cold weather variant a couple years ago, it blasted out heat during the -5 degree cold snaps of last winter, maintained its full capacity, and did it surprisingly efficiently. But probably not worth it to go cold climate in Austin :-)

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#32

Post by [deleted] »

exabrial wrote: post #9

What actually happened [probably], in California: A heatpump salesman has a buddy that is a government official. Has outdated models he needs to liquidate. Salesman guy needs to be richer. Government official can't take the money directly, but sure would like to fly on salesman guys' private jet when they go golfing. Meanwhile government official guy goes and buys a bunch of Salesman company stock and profits explode…

[deleted]

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#33

Post by ericd »

exabrial wrote: post #9

What actually happened [probably], in California: A heatpump salesman has a buddy that is a government official. Has outdated models he needs to liquidate. Salesman guy needs to be richer. Government official can't take the money directly, but sure would like to fly on salesman guys' private jet when they go golfing. Meanwhile government official guy goes and buys a bunch of Salesman company stock and profits explode…

Nah, this is a program that someone in CA put together, it’s not a government program iirc. It’s just a dude coordinating a group buy (which is great! Solar United Neighbors does something similar for solar, and it seems very effective).

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#34

Post by amluto »

wesleyd wrote: post #24
amluto wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one in their right mind runs ductwork between the interior and exterior of the building in residential installations. There’s power, possible control wiring, and two or (in exotic installations) three refrigerant pipes. (In a more enlightened world, I think that a system with the refrigerant fully contained within the outdoor unit that uses plain water as the heat exchange fluid could make a lot of sense, and this…

I believe these are called “monobloc” and they exist, but are rare in the US.

You can buy them as “packaged terminal heat pumps”. They’re very common in motels.

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#35

Post by donavanm »

magicalhippo wrote: post #2

I'm always amazed at how much these costs in the US. Wild prices even for a Norwegian. We have a two-story home half his size, but one minisplit upstairs and one downstairs would be $3-4000 installed, combined, and that's upper or top-end models. The ones I got would easily handle a house of his size.

Same in Australia/East Asia generally. Had a mid range daiken 3kw unit installed upstairs last summer; $2500 AUD and ~5 man hours to install including roof access and exterior wall mounting. A bigger 7kw multi head unit would have been about $6-7k AUD but required awkward attic and wall access.

Installed prices in the US are pretty silly. Theres a bourgeoning set of DIY units that come precharged. But even those are pricey compared to the rest of the world.

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#36

Post by wasfgwp »

gruez wrote: post #16
exabrial wrote: post #9

What actually happened [probably], in California: A heatpump salesman has a buddy that is a government official. Has outdated models he needs to liquidate. Salesman guy needs to be richer. Government official can't take the money directly, but sure would like to fly on salesman guys' private jet when they go golfing. Meanwhile government official guy goes and buys a bunch of Salesman company stock and profits explode…

>Heatpumps should absolutely be the primary choice in the correct climates. But these deals are rarely good or efficient for a taxpayer. I'm amazed at the cynicism here. [thing] is objectively good, but it's still bad because government is involved and therefore corruption should be assumed? Even if we assume the government is corrupt by default, surely corruption that uses better technology is better than continuing…

All that shouldn’t be necessary without all the anti-consumer regulations which distort the market and inflate prices.

On the other hand you have all the “socialist” countries in Northern Europe which are much more consumer and business friendly (at least in areas like this).

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#37

Post by Tostino »

donavanm wrote: post #35
magicalhippo wrote: post #2

I'm always amazed at how much these costs in the US. Wild prices even for a Norwegian. We have a two-story home half his size, but one minisplit upstairs and one downstairs would be $3-4000 installed, combined, and that's upper or top-end models. The ones I got would easily handle a house of his size.

Same in Australia/East Asia generally. Had a mid range daiken 3kw unit installed upstairs last summer; $2500 AUD and ~5 man hours to install including roof access and exterior wall mounting. A bigger 7kw multi head unit would have been about $6-7k AUD but required awkward attic and wall access. Installed prices in the US are pretty silly. Theres a bourgeoning set of DIY units that come precharged. But even those are…

Just FYI, there's no reason at all to buy the DIY kits over just a regular mini split. The difference is DIY kits come with the lines pre-vacuumed and with seals on the end of them. So when you finally connect everything, the lines don't need a vacuum drawn on them prior to allowing the refrigerant into them.

A vacuum pump costs about $100. Just get a regular cheap mini split and vacuum the lines yourself, and save $1,000 or more.

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#38

Post by donavanm »

Tostino wrote: post #37
donavanm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Australia/East Asia generally. Had a mid range daiken 3kw unit installed upstairs last summer; $2500 AUD and ~5 man hours to install including roof access and exterior wall mounting. A bigger 7kw multi head unit would have been about $6-7k AUD but required awkward attic and wall access. Installed prices in the US are pretty silly. Theres a bourgeoning set of DIY units that come precharged. But even those are…

Just FYI, there's no reason at all to buy the DIY kits over just a regular mini split. The difference is DIY kits come with the lines pre-vacuumed and with seals on the end of them. So when you finally connect everything, the lines don't need a vacuum drawn on them prior to allowing the refrigerant into them. A vacuum pump costs about $100. Just get a regular cheap mini split and vacuum the lines yourself, and save $…

Yeah, vaguely aware that you could diy the entire setup with refrigerant etc. But its not relevant at local prices here in AU.

One of the interesting things I noticed here is that manufacturers are providing exchangers and head units that can reuse existing pipes. Makes sense for retrofit/upgrades where running pipes through utility spaces and bulkheads is a significant labor cost.

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#39

Post by raincom »

ericd wrote: post #31
OldSchool wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mine are from 2011, R410a and on the rare occasion that it gets to 22F here in Austin, they are painfully ineffective!

I installed a cold weather variant a couple years ago, it blasted out heat during the -5 degree cold snaps of last winter, maintained its full capacity, and did it surprisingly efficiently. But probably not worth it to go cold climate in Austin :-)

Which system did you install? Who installed? DIY or a contractor?

Re: A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk

#40

Post by gwittel »

gruez wrote: post #17
gwittel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern heat pumps easily keep efficiency below freezing. Ours goes to 22F before there’s any efficiency drop. A different model goes below 0F (we just didn’t need it). But yes, many makers push the crappier old tech models that bail around 50F.

>Modern heat pumps easily keep efficiency below freezing. Ours goes to 22F before there’s any efficiency drop. A different model goes below 0F (we just didn’t need it). No they don't. Their efficiency is linearly correlated with the ambient temperature. They don't "keep efficiency" nor is there a concept of "efficiency drop". It's just a straight line down. https://docs.energytransitionmodel.com/main/heat-pumps/

You’re right. My wording was imprecise. I should have said the efficiency drop off is such that for practical purposes it doesn’t matter - until you hit a crossing point. You won’t need supplemental heat until then. Newer systems have pushed those points lower.
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