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Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

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Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#21

Post by borzi »

WarmWash wrote: post #9

I don't know a single white collar worker who isn't using AI for their job. Not like forced, but like "Oh damn, this bot thing can do a lot of tedious leg work for me". To think that people won't pay $60-$80/mo to continue using it is wild to me. In a white collar environment it pays for itself in a few hours of use. If you focus on how much value AI brings to people (mostly in time saved), the bubble hardly looks bu…

The reason uber didn't loose that much business is because it replaced the established businesses and left most consumers with little alternative.

That's not the case with AI - unless the frontier labs achieve AGI or some sort of super intelligence that lets them create infinite economic value (at which point, any further discussion is pointless for obvious reasons), the average worker can do most of their tasks with 5% of the api costs using an open source model from China and achieve the same results.

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#22

Post by dominotw »

mr-pink wrote: post #10
WarmWash wrote: post #9

I don't know a single white collar worker who isn't using AI for their job. Not like forced, but like "Oh damn, this bot thing can do a lot of tedious leg work for me". To think that people won't pay $60-$80/mo to continue using it is wild to me. In a white collar environment it pays for itself in a few hours of use. If you focus on how much value AI brings to people (mostly in time saved), the bubble hardly looks bu…

using how?

summarize email and then generate slop that gets summarized on the other end

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#23

Post by surgical_fire »

TrackerFF wrote: post #16
WarmWash wrote: post #9

I don't know a single white collar worker who isn't using AI for their job. Not like forced, but like "Oh damn, this bot thing can do a lot of tedious leg work for me". To think that people won't pay $60-$80/mo to continue using it is wild to me. In a white collar environment it pays for itself in a few hours of use. If you focus on how much value AI brings to people (mostly in time saved), the bubble hardly looks bu…

But the question is how much are people willing to pay for AI. I use AI every day at work, but I only pay $20. That's the most I will ever want to pay. And, so far, it gives me everything I need. If OpenAI or Anthropic suddenly said "Sorry, the game is up. You'll have to pay $100/month now", I would 100% look into cheaper Chinese solutions. I suspect the AI subscription (or API) economy is whale economy. You have a s…

Rofl, I already went for cheaper Chinese solutions. I can achieve more than I could when I was giving OpenAI 20 bucks a month, and for a fraction of the price.

I have no idea why people still use ChatGPT or Claude.

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#24

Post by johnbarron »

TrackerFF wrote: post #16
WarmWash wrote: post #9

I don't know a single white collar worker who isn't using AI for their job. Not like forced, but like "Oh damn, this bot thing can do a lot of tedious leg work for me". To think that people won't pay $60-$80/mo to continue using it is wild to me. In a white collar environment it pays for itself in a few hours of use. If you focus on how much value AI brings to people (mostly in time saved), the bubble hardly looks bu…

But the question is how much are people willing to pay for AI. I use AI every day at work, but I only pay $20. That's the most I will ever want to pay. And, so far, it gives me everything I need. If OpenAI or Anthropic suddenly said "Sorry, the game is up. You'll have to pay $100/month now", I would 100% look into cheaper Chinese solutions. I suspect the AI subscription (or API) economy is whale economy. You have a s…

You can now, as of this week, run locally models with the same performance of a SOTA model of March this year:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49214008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49229621

The FAFO day of Anthropic and OpenAI arrived.

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#26

Post by coliveira »

surgical_fire wrote: post #23
TrackerFF wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the question is how much are people willing to pay for AI. I use AI every day at work, but I only pay $20. That's the most I will ever want to pay. And, so far, it gives me everything I need. If OpenAI or Anthropic suddenly said "Sorry, the game is up. You'll have to pay $100/month now", I would 100% look into cheaper Chinese solutions. I suspect the AI subscription (or API) economy is whale economy. You have a s…

Rofl, I already went for cheaper Chinese solutions. I can achieve more than I could when I was giving OpenAI 20 bucks a month, and for a fraction of the price. I have no idea why people still use ChatGPT or Claude.

Most people don't understand how cheap models like DeepSeek and similar are. I have $5 in an account that I use for months. I can get very complex code for less than 50 cents.

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#27

Post by phyalow »

TrackerFF wrote: post #16
WarmWash wrote: post #9

I don't know a single white collar worker who isn't using AI for their job. Not like forced, but like "Oh damn, this bot thing can do a lot of tedious leg work for me". To think that people won't pay $60-$80/mo to continue using it is wild to me. In a white collar environment it pays for itself in a few hours of use. If you focus on how much value AI brings to people (mostly in time saved), the bubble hardly looks bu…

But the question is how much are people willing to pay for AI. I use AI every day at work, but I only pay $20. That's the most I will ever want to pay. And, so far, it gives me everything I need. If OpenAI or Anthropic suddenly said "Sorry, the game is up. You'll have to pay $100/month now", I would 100% look into cheaper Chinese solutions. I suspect the AI subscription (or API) economy is whale economy. You have a s…

I spent $18k in credits last month, I have 3x 20x Anthropic accounts (for Fable to bypass limits) which runs me another $600ish p/m and then a chatgpt pro account another $200 p/m. The value I got out of it is easily 1-200x what I paid.

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#28

Post by gostsamo »

WarmWash wrote: post #9

I don't know a single white collar worker who isn't using AI for their job. Not like forced, but like "Oh damn, this bot thing can do a lot of tedious leg work for me". To think that people won't pay $60-$80/mo to continue using it is wild to me. In a white collar environment it pays for itself in a few hours of use. If you focus on how much value AI brings to people (mostly in time saved), the bubble hardly looks bu…

A bit of napkin math.

How many are the white collar workers? 300 mln? even with $100 subscription each, the monthly revenue for your addressable market rises to $30 bln. If we increase the figure to half of humanity and they are 3 bn, you multiply it upto 10 and $300 bn monthly, $3.5 tn annually.

Now start cutting it down keeping in mind that not everyone is an office worker, does not need $100 plan, has access to cheaper models, could get ai through someone elses subscription or local models. I'm not sure how down it will get, but it can get down a lot and will have to be split among few players. At least for me it does not seem unrealistic that the revenue won't be enough for everyone.

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#29

Post by cm2187 »

WarmWash wrote: post #9

I don't know a single white collar worker who isn't using AI for their job. Not like forced, but like "Oh damn, this bot thing can do a lot of tedious leg work for me". To think that people won't pay $60-$80/mo to continue using it is wild to me. In a white collar environment it pays for itself in a few hours of use. If you focus on how much value AI brings to people (mostly in time saved), the bubble hardly looks bu…

The real question is not whether there will be a market for AI, it is obvious that there will be one (as it was obvious the Internet was a gigantic thing in the dotcom boom). It is rather whether the value will be in the models (and if so in which?) or the infrastructure or somewhere else.

Interesting thoughts from Dwarkesh Patel on the future of models [1]. In summary, no moat if a client can switch to a competitor from a dropdown when all models are similar-ish (so models are commodities), but to really compete with humans, AI needs to start "learning on the job", i.e. accumulating experience like an employee (as opposed to the training / inference approach where the model isn't learning after it is released). If your model does that, then you have vendor lock-in as you can't replace an experienced model with a competitor. Then the value is in the model.

As in the 90s, this could go in all sort of different directions, hard to make predictions. And remember the 90s: the value was in the browser (you had to purchase it, eg Netscape), then the browser came for free with the OS (no value in the browser), then the browser was the most important thing in the world as it was control over the default search engine, everyone thought portals was the most important thing to control, so ISPs had their own applications accessing the internet from their own portal, etc - none of those people were stupid.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iewm45atodE

Re: Why Wall Street is ignoring big tech's debt [video]

#30

Post by yeezyszn »

Wall Street makes money from issuing debt, trading debt, and IPOs. They need to get the last two mega IPOs off before the curtain call on this era.

But they can only partially influence the market, they can’t control it. The question is if the market will let them get these IPOs off or if the jig is up.

Here’s an exercise for anyone curious: pull up the median stock in the S&P 500. Look at its P/E. Take 15 minutes and look through the company’s financials and figure out what you think about the quality of its earnings.

Then decide if that P/E is appropriate.

The bubble isn’t in just AI, the bubble is everywhere, and AI is its largest manifestation.

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