Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 497 posts

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#161

Post by Joker_vD »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

> sports practice until 5:00. Gotta have that activity on your college application, not counting other volunteering and clubs in the open spaces.

Still baffles me why is that even a thing that's considered at the colleges. I thought it was just a relic of Soviet past but no, apparently it exists in the US and other first world countries as well for some strange reason.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#162

Post by zwily »

culi wrote: post #69
hodgesrm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michigan also dropped their mandate for ACT / SAT to obtain admission. So, yes, I would say that's pretty broken. Combined with systematic grade inflation American universities as a whole are removing any real feedback about student preparation, level of effort, or ability.

The UC system and many other of the top universities in the country have also stopped looking at SAT scores. Growing up with no one in my family having gone to college I had no idea how any of this stuff worked or anybody to tell me its important. Eventually I moved to a middle class suburb and saw kids hire private tutors for it. Meanwhile I remember 2 days before I had mine scheduled and had to find someone to beg…

And UC professors are begging them to unwind that and go back to ACT/SAT.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#163

Post by michaelbuckbee »

kalcode wrote: post #136
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

A lot of this is just inflicted by parent culture and anxiety. Unless your kid applying to an elite school, most college/university accept between 60-80% of their applicants. If they have decent GPA. We are making the kids endure that out of fear of their college, but stats don't back up the grind they make the kids do.

Parent of a middle and a high schooler and we try very hard to not pressure the kids, but a lot of it is coming from their peers and the school.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#164

Post by firesteelrain »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

This must be a State thing.

> she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice until 5:00.

In other States, high school starts later like 8:45/9am. You can take classes online and start school later if you want or do dual enrollment and skip later periods.

> Gotta have that activity on your college application, not counting other volunteering and clubs in the open spaces.

Mine worked and were in clubs. Kids are remarkably resilient. In some States, work time counts in lieu of volunteer time.

> Then you have test prep (APs and the ACT/SAT), college applications, writing essays and scholarship applications, college tours, sorting decisions, financial aid applications, etc etc etc. And now her college already has a few hours of orientation videos stacked up for her to watch before she moves in.

This sounds like a lot of undue pressure. UCF didn’t make you do that. ACT or SAT works and you have a couple years to do it. Not all at once in Senior year and you usually can composite your score across the highest tests.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#165

Post by freeopinion »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

Just to present another reality... a lot of kids coast through high school academically. They sleep through classes or play video games on their school-provided laptops, or play on their phones all day. They know about "minimum-F" policies where submitting 0 work earns them 50%. And they don't really care about getting Ds. Then some community support program assigns them a counselor who drags them over some finish line to get them admitted to a community college.

No, this isn't every high school student. But there are more people in the group I describe than there are in the group you describe.

Here's my point: There is a lot of ground between the two extremes. And both ends of the spectrum are making it into college of some sort. So it you think your child is under too much stress from taking seven AP classes, drop four of them. If they are overwhelmed by tennis practice, ... maybe recognize that removing all friction from a person's life is not necessarily a good thing. Work together to build coping skills. But no child has to be an Olympic medalist neurosurgeon senator CEO all at the same time. Who is "forcing" that on high school students? You?

There is plenty of room for people with 3.2 GPAs and only two AP classes when they graduate. Frankly, with some family support, it is not that hard to have a 3.8 GPA for 60+% of students.

But I've seen high school valedictorians with 3.9 college GPAs graduate and struggle to find a white collar job. What is the plan for that from U Mich?

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#166

Post by skillina »

mrngld wrote: post #119
alistairSH wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I don't blame her if she checks out for a few weeks. Or a semester. Nor would I, but I'd also accept that she did so and failed a few classes. Just like I did in the 90s. Although in my case it wasn't burn-out, but system shock at actually having to try to get good grades (Fairfax County PS then UVA). Did that bombed first semester probably eliminate med school or an elite graduate program? Sure. But I pr…

Yes, same here, for me high school was easy and I failed (or effectively failed, a D counted the same as an F) a couple classes right out of the gate. It was a lesson to myself that I never learned to study in high school and had to learn that skill ASAP. Michigan and its apologists here would rob these kids of real-world experience, reducing them to infants. And then we're all disappointed when these adults act like…

Robbing the students of that experience would be to hand them an inflated letter grade. If anything this encourages instructors not to be gentle in grading first semester students. Students who eke out a low C grade will get the warning and can calibrate the level of effort needed (or switch fields) without the impact on grad school admissions or intern/new grad job search.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#167

Post by bakies »

steve-atx-7600 wrote: post #157
bakies wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check your racism guy

It isn’t racist to acknowledge that some schools select students based on factors other than demonstrated aptitude. In the last ten years it was a fad in the US to not require SAT scores until folks realized this was dumb and reversed course.

You can select by aptitude and also not select only white people. You're saying you have to lower the bar for people that aren't white. That's the racist part. And the whole DEI culture war bullshit in politics. There's no bar lowering involved.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#168

Post by davidgay »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #103
bradfa wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are normal adults not "working" in a similar way to your kid for 15+ hours per weekday? Comparable adult parent things would be up at 6am, prep kids for school day, in the office by 8am, 8 hours of work plus a lunch, departing the office around 5pm, transporting kids to/from some activities, dinner, helping kids with homework, somehow fit in regular shopping needs (food, essentials, etc), maybe some volunteering or h…

Children are part of hobbies. Very challenging at times, but for example I sleep with my kid hugging me, or I chat with them while in the car, or we do chores while watching tv or something like that. And not every day is packed like that, you can tell your kids "no more than 3 times per week of activties, the other 2 days are for playdates", and that should be acceptable. There are horrible days of the week, but it'…

> Children are part of hobbies.

That is a weird (modern?) delusion. Without children, our species disappears in Those who are having and raising children are the ones doing the most for the next generation.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#169

Post by yrjrjjrjjtjjr »

watwut wrote: post #141
mae3x wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This schedule is no different than my schedule from 30 years ago and I don't consider it problematic at all. You frame it as 15+ hour days by including all aspects of their day as "work" but no normal adult includes their workout time and their social engagements as part of their work day. Time spent in sports is fun, not work. If it is work, then quit. Time spent in gym class and lunch is not work. Remove all that b…

> Time spent in sports is fun, not work. It is fun when it is fun, when you can skip it or do it purely because you want to. If you go to sports club because you have to, it is work and not fun. If you go volunteer or have to join the club for college application, they become work. They are not fun stuff. > Time spent in gym class and lunch is not work Gym class is work. Kids are not there voluntarily.

If your job required you to sleep 8h a night would that make it less restorative?

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#170

Post by enragedcacti »

cj wrote: post #121
Otterly99 wrote: post #113

For people that find this controversial: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03075079.2023.2... "Our findings reveal that gradeless learning can increase motivation and reduce surface learning but has no significant effect on students’ later academic achievements."

For some reason that doesn't make me feel better. If college is supposed to prepare kids for the real world, we should be creating environments that simulate the real world as much as possible. Creating a consequence free semester is the polar opposite of how the real world works. In the real world, you get a job, and you're on probation for your "first semester" when the scrutiny is at its highest. You don't get the…

> If college is supposed to prepare kids for the real world, we should be creating environments that simulate the real world as much as possible.

Would you take a motorcycle safety course where the first thing they do is chuck you into "simulated" traffic? It feels too obvious to say, but just throwing people in the deep-end isn't necessarily the most consistent or effective teaching tool for every situation.

Post reply on HN