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Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

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Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#151

Post by jack_pp »

koliber wrote: post #79
mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

I read a while back that our brains produce roughly 0.3 mg of melatonin when signaling us to go to sleep. When I occasionally do use melatonin I split a 1mg pill into half or thirds. I find that it works well enough to help me fall asleep. Wondering how the study would look if hwy used 1/2 mg doses.

I used to do this too, but I learned that will give you inconsistent dosage as the pills aren't guaranteed to have the active ingredient spread uniformly.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#152

Post by hinkley »

glenngillen wrote: post #134
Angostura wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are targeted at older patients, I'd expect them to be a sensible starting point for older patients

Last time I was in the US the lowest dose melatonin gummies I could find in a CVS were 1mg — kids gummies. That's more than 3x the actual recommended dose for an average adult based on the research others have shared in this thread. So no, they're not starting from a sensible starting point.

Were they packaged as kid gummies or are you presuming that gummies = kids? Because that hasn’t been the case for a long time. Those vitamin D gummies I buy because I will take them instead of might take them consistently, are not child doses either. They’re marketing gummies to adults here.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#153

Post by jijijijij »

Fluorescence wrote: post #113
siren2026 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think was the difference with working out in the evening or just shifting your day by a couple hours?

Not op, but I have been forced to switch to morning workouts for the past year and they as bad as they always were for me. Above low intensity and I am impaired for the rest of the day - struggling with low energy, cognitively dulled and desperate for a nap. This applies even though it's not from sacrificing sleep at 05:00 like some folk do but a leisurely 08:30 or later. My evening workout schedule (for decades) let…

For me the difference is anaerobic vs aerobic exercise.

I can only go for a run first thing in the morning. Although, that's more about the empty stomach (and outdoor temperatures in summer). If I got sugar in my blood, food in my stomach, I kinda "crash" very soon and tend to get heart burn. The empty stomach also makes me feel lighter and the slight hunger feels in tune with the overall experience, if that makes sense. Running in the morning doesn't leave me tired, if I've reached the "maintenance level" (got no specific exercise goal, tho). Aerobic exercise has the benefit of giving me overall higher "energy" by making everything slightly less exhausting. And the peaceful calm of an early morning run in the green (city park) is a blissful, almost spiritual experience radiating into the day. That said, running in the evening can be fun, too, because I feel supernaturally fast. I do that too sometimes, if I feel very, very stressed/anxious and need an outlet.

On the other hand, doing strength training blood sugar is an asset, but pushing limits leaves me exhausted and tired no matter what. I presume, it's natural to feel tired, if the body has tissue damage to repair from exercise. The difference is, running can be done effectively (as far as health maintenance is concerned) without excessive tissue damage and inherently pushing limits as much.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#154

Post by 63stack »

hackable_sand wrote: post #119
fragmede wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the 8sleep is pretty nice because it heats and cools you so you get better sleep, and you can still put your phone away if you have one.

Better sleep than what? Humans have been sleeping for at least 400 years

Are you sceptical if people have slept before 1600, or what's with the "at least?"

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#155

Post by sersi »

hinkley wrote: post #65
HexPhantom wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd expect the standard OTC dose to be a sensible starting point, not potentially several times more than a younger person needs

You wouldn’t, if you remembered that medically speaking, younger people “needing” melatonin pills has been pretty fringe until very recently, and the number of young people who need it is still comparatively small. You can find smaller pills. But you might have to try several chains or order online to get them.

It's been the standard recommendation for dealing with jetlag in the last 15-20 years. And usually people who regularly experience jetlag due to repeated international professional trips are not elderly.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#156

Post by avarun »

mutagen wrote: post #18
wincy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take 300mcg when I’m having a hard time getting to sleep or if I’ve had a lot of caffeine. Mostly because Scott Alexander told me to.

Yeah I'm in the 300 mcg camp, I take a time release formulation, try to take it early but often it isn't far off bedtime.

Which specific product do you take? Do you have a link?

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#157

Post by avesi »

hackable_sand wrote: post #119
fragmede wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the 8sleep is pretty nice because it heats and cools you so you get better sleep, and you can still put your phone away if you have one.

Better sleep than what? Humans have been sleeping for at least 400 years

I know an obese individual who has one and I'm sure having a ventilated bed helps them sleep more comfortably.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#158

Post by epihelix »

wincy wrote: post #9
mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

I take 300mcg when I’m having a hard time getting to sleep or if I’ve had a lot of caffeine. Mostly because Scott Alexander told me to.

Would it not be easier to not drink so much caffeine late in the day? Unless you're jetlagged, there's not much evidence AFAIK that melatonin will induce sleep better than a placebo.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#159

Post by budsniffer952 »

mettamage wrote: post #129
budsniffer952 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

So much for a good faith discussion here. I don't appreciate that you tell me to "get a grip". You're not steelmanning. Instead, your reaction comes off as a knee jerk reaction. There are enough communities where I have to come up with defenses to deal with that nonsense. Don't do it here please. US melatonin measured dosage can be 4x as much as what is reported [1, 2]. Also 0.3 mg is the recommended dose [4]. A lot…

[flagged]

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#160

Post by amanaplanacanal »

mlrtime wrote: post #116
rusk wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pharma and Healthcare was the implication I believe. The US approach to these things has a bad reputation internationally though I am informed that it’s an amazing system if you’re rich.

Are you implying that everyone in the US is taking unknown quantities of OTC medications? Unless you have some data to backup this claim, it is tinfoil hat speaking.

In the US its regulated as a supplement, not an over the counter medication.
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