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U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

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Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#121

Post by cj »

Otterly99 wrote: post #113

For people that find this controversial: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03075079.2023.2... "Our findings reveal that gradeless learning can increase motivation and reduce surface learning but has no significant effect on students’ later academic achievements."

For some reason that doesn't make me feel better.

If college is supposed to prepare kids for the real world, we should be creating environments that simulate the real world as much as possible.

Creating a consequence free semester is the polar opposite of how the real world works. In the real world, you get a job, and you're on probation for your "first semester" when the scrutiny is at its highest. You don't get the privilege of easing into the job, you're thrown in. Shouldn't be any different for college kids.

The safety bubble we're building around kids + young adults is not going to end well.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#122

Post by mrngld »

odyssey7 wrote: post #109
jerlam wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People called them "weeder" classes in my university. But it's better earlier rather than later. The consequences aren't severe and you can change majors, lessen your course load, or stop those volunteer opportunities. That's part of learning how to be an adult. I knew a few people my freshmen year that were put on academic probation. They turned out all right after making some drastic changes. Others simply disappea…

Apart from the notion of a moral obligation that may now seem quaint and old-fashioned, you’re talking about their customers who are paying for an education. The responsibility rests partly on the school for solving these challenges. Declaring students “weeds” would tell you all you need to know about the place.

If it's simply pay to win then the value of a degree from an institution falls to absolutely zero. If the product a student is buying is a credential that's supposed to say "I know and can do things, pay me money please" then in order for that credential to fulfill its objective then low performing and mediocre students ("weeds") need to be filtered out. Otherwise, employers and the wider world will quickly realize the credential is meaningless.

See the problem here?

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#123

Post by ackbar03 »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

Sorry if this seems naive but do students in America actually work that hard these days? Modern television and social media seem to suggest they are all on drugs and doing God knows what

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#124

Post by christoff12 »

joezydeco wrote: post #37
estearum wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Let me tell you about the scam of 'honors' classes in today's high schools. They not doing anything more introspective or challenging. It's the same classwork thrown at them faster and without as much teaching support. Just more to grind out. But when you don't understand something? You're smart, you'll figure it out . In return you get inflated GPAs that get you into better colleges. But if you can't figure it out o…

Knowing what I know now, I definitely would've opted for dual-credit rather than honors/AP classes, and CLEPed out of the remainder of freshman year basics.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#125

Post by mc32 »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

Is she typical or atypical of the kids having issues? My bet is the kids having issues are ones that were less academically inclined. Perhaps they were misled throughout primary education (trophies for everyone, equality of results rather than opportunity, dumbed down mathematics, skipping physics as a req., etc.)

I don’t think kids like yours are having issues but rather kids who didn’t apply themselves academically.

Basically A or even B grades cannot be an average grade. C or 2.0 would be the expected average but of course this hasn’t been close to true since GWB introduced his idiotic policy.

It’s no secret, if you let kids (or people) slack, 80 to 90% will slack off. 10 to 20% will endure out of principle or habit.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#126

Post by [deleted] »

boelboel wrote: post #65
alephnerd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naw. Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college. The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers.

Sometimes I wonder where all these HNers work. The majority of "slightly below top companies" seem to consist of mediocre workers, which is fine. Employees are just doing their job and if they fuck up, even badly, it's not too difficult for them to get a new job. Meanwhile a student getting a few subpar grades, often for reasons beyond their control, should somehow be punished forever.

[deleted]

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#127

Post by _zoltan_ »

bradfa wrote: post #44
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

Are normal adults not "working" in a similar way to your kid for 15+ hours per weekday? Comparable adult parent things would be up at 6am, prep kids for school day, in the office by 8am, 8 hours of work plus a lunch, departing the office around 5pm, transporting kids to/from some activities, dinner, helping kids with homework, somehow fit in regular shopping needs (food, essentials, etc), maybe some volunteering or h…

we wake up at 7, prep the kids to school, they walk there alone then, we have coffee together, then I drive to the office by usually 9:30. have a proper lunch break with colleagues, then in the office until 6pm or so, then drive home, have dinner, put the kids in bed by 8, then we can watch a movie/do hobbies/etc.

while I work, my wife can do the shopping and take care of other household chores if needed.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#128

Post by cactusplant7374 »

boelboel wrote: post #65
alephnerd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naw. Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college. The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers.

Sometimes I wonder where all these HNers work. The majority of "slightly below top companies" seem to consist of mediocre workers, which is fine. Employees are just doing their job and if they fuck up, even badly, it's not too difficult for them to get a new job. Meanwhile a student getting a few subpar grades, often for reasons beyond their control, should somehow be punished forever.

All of the AI companies are what I would consider top companies and all of them have had consistent outages because of bugs. OpenAI resets Codex limits almost weekly because of a major outage. Top companies have plenty of average employees.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#129

Post by Broken_Hippo »

bradfa wrote: post #47
joezydeco wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we shouldn't expect adult/parent level of work out a 16/17 year-old. There's no time left any more to be a kid.

Your comment specifically compared it to the normal adult, my point is the normal adult who is a parent is very likely doing even more than your example of your kid. Even for adults who aren't in the elite high earner category, heck people who make less money are likely working even more hours per day just to make ends meet.

How, exactly, are they working more? How many low-paying jobs offer overtime, if they are full time at all? Any clue how many jobs won't let you work a part-time job or won't work around another job? Can't exactly work for Uber if you can't afford a decent enough car. And this is assuming you have older children that don't need childcare.

The fact is that they aren't working extra, not for a job anyway. The extra work comes in the time making dried beans instead of buying canned, in repairing stuff poorly, in shopping around for a doctor that takes the state health insurance or an affordable option if you have none at all, in taking busses (if they are available), and other unpaid things. Your child will be lucky to afford the activities that gets them a 'good' education, especially if they have to work.

Re: U of Michigan drops first-semester grades to ‘curb mental health crisis’

#130

Post by SideQuark »

culi wrote: post #69
hodgesrm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michigan also dropped their mandate for ACT / SAT to obtain admission. So, yes, I would say that's pretty broken. Combined with systematic grade inflation American universities as a whole are removing any real feedback about student preparation, level of effort, or ability.

The UC system and many other of the top universities in the country have also stopped looking at SAT scores. Growing up with no one in my family having gone to college I had no idea how any of this stuff worked or anybody to tell me its important. Eventually I moved to a middle class suburb and saw kids hire private tutors for it. Meanwhile I remember 2 days before I had mine scheduled and had to find someone to beg…

> The UC system and many other of the top universities in the country have also stopped looking at SAT scores.

Which led to a spectacular failure of incoming students to do basic math, lead to massive increases in failures in first year math courses.

Maybe removing signal loses knowledge about who is ready for standard classes?

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