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The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

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Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#121

Post by burnt-resistor »

miyoji wrote: post #11

The good part of this: don't fall into the trap of believing the proposition "an idiot disagrees with me, so I must be right". That's solid advice, idiots believe countless true things and geniuses believe innumerable false things. The intelligence of a random interlocutor has nothing to do with the validity of their opinions, really, so it shouldn't serve as evidence one way or another. Generally, I try to pay atten…

There are zillions upon zillions of domain specific smart people with many totally batshit beliefs (pick a billionaire, any billionaire except Buffett). There are also plenty of approaching polymaths also with wackadoodle beliefs on particular subjects too. I'd say that well-rounded reasonableness and "common sense" in more areas than most is rare and skews towards wide-ranging life experiences, average intelligence, and advanced age. There are only a few wise elders who have figured out many things, not everything.

And no one will ever agree with you on everything. Anyone who agrees with you on everything is lying to you a priori or you're hallucinating them.

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#122

Post by duncangh »

jhbadger wrote: post #90
hackernud3s wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is clearly a cool take though and author knows it. This is not a polarizing view in the sense that anything about Epstein / Gaza / Trans athletes would be.

Maybe not as polarizing as those, but by "animal welfare" he doesn't mean volunteering at the local animal shelter, he's a vegan. That's pretty polarizing to a lot of people who see veganism as an attack on their whole existence because they like meat.

Veganism is so polarizing because on some level I think most if not all people understand that they are philosophically correct and that veganism is thus the morally right thing to do and those (like me) who still refuse to do it must live with themselves and their immoral choices every time they are confronted by a vegan or reminded of the feasibility of veganism

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#123

Post by jhbadger »

duncangh wrote: post #122
jhbadger wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not as polarizing as those, but by "animal welfare" he doesn't mean volunteering at the local animal shelter, he's a vegan. That's pretty polarizing to a lot of people who see veganism as an attack on their whole existence because they like meat.

Veganism is so polarizing because on some level I think most if not all people understand that they are philosophically correct and that veganism is thus the morally right thing to do and those (like me) who still refuse to do it must live with themselves and their immoral choices every time they are confronted by a vegan or reminded of the feasibility of veganism

Perhaps. I suspect it may have more to do with the idea that many non-vegans think (whether or not it is true) that vegans believe themselves superior. It isn't unlike how learning that someone is an atheist angers many religious people -- they think the atheists think that they are superior (whether or not they really do).

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#124

Post by gghackernewsgg »

mapontosevenths wrote: post #27
pstuart wrote: post #21

Here's One Weird Trick™ to avoid being an ideologue: be ok with being wrong. Flipping that over: aspire to be correct in your beliefs, not in "being right". Karl Popper (the man behind the Intolerance of Intolerance "paradox) identified it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

I only recently learned that most peoples beliefs are not "factual beliefs". Since most of mine are, I thought that's how other people work. I think Popper may have made the same mistake by assuming "correctness" is always the primary value a belief offers. The other kind of beliefs are "Symbolic beliefs." Symbolic beliefs are not held because they are true, or because they are useful on their own. They're held becau…

Personally, I consider "belief" from a behavioral perspective: belief is the model of reality one actually operates from.

For example, when I walk on my kitchen floor, I don't have to tell myself: "the floor is structurally sound, it's safe to walk on it." I just walk.

The fact that I just walk can be used to infer an infinite number of implied bleiefs that I've never verbalized until this moment. For example, I believe that:

1. The floor can support my weight.

2. The tiles aren't made of toxic materials.

3. I don't pay $$ by the step.

4. Walking on the floor doesn't cause my wife pain.

5. The floor isn't lava.

To refine my definition: a belief is that which systematically and implicitly guides my expectations, reactions, choices, etc.

In her glass skywalk example, Gendler lays out the definitions roughly so:

1. "I know this skywalk is sturdy and safe" = Belief

2. The hesitancy to cross the skywalk = Alief

But to me:

1. "I know this skywalk is sturdy and safe" = knowledge

2. Hesitancy to cross it = actual belief.

That's why in my vocavbulary it's perfectly fine to say: "I know it. But I don't believe it."

Similarly, if someone says, "I totally believe that planes are safe, but I'm terrified of flying", then I will think to myself: "nope; you totally don't believe that planes are safe."

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#125

Post by joenot443 »

miyoji wrote: post #11

The good part of this: don't fall into the trap of believing the proposition "an idiot disagrees with me, so I must be right". That's solid advice, idiots believe countless true things and geniuses believe innumerable false things. The intelligence of a random interlocutor has nothing to do with the validity of their opinions, really, so it shouldn't serve as evidence one way or another. Generally, I try to pay atten…

About 70% of American adults can name all three branches of government.

That leaves about 81m Americans who cannot. I'm sure you were a very clever 8yo, many of the people here spent a lot of their childhood being told they were clever. That said, suggesting that the other 30% of the country less clever than 8yo you should be excluded from political discussions is somewhat illiberal in my mind. Perhaps the notion we're creeping toward is that people less educated don't deserve a political voice or to take part in political exchange, which is a tenet I wouldn't agree with.

[1] https://www.asc.upenn.edu/news-events/news/americans-knowled...

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#126

Post by joenot443 »

burnt-resistor wrote: post #121
miyoji wrote: post #11

The good part of this: don't fall into the trap of believing the proposition "an idiot disagrees with me, so I must be right". That's solid advice, idiots believe countless true things and geniuses believe innumerable false things. The intelligence of a random interlocutor has nothing to do with the validity of their opinions, really, so it shouldn't serve as evidence one way or another. Generally, I try to pay atten…

There are zillions upon zillions of domain specific smart people with many totally batshit beliefs (pick a billionaire, any billionaire except Buffett). There are also plenty of approaching polymaths also with wackadoodle beliefs on particular subjects too. I'd say that well-rounded reasonableness and "common sense" in more areas than most is rare and skews towards wide-ranging life experiences, average intelligence,…

MacKenzie Scott? Jensen Huang? Bernard Arnault? The Walton siblings?

Even ol' BG - he may be a billionaire but I think he's in general a very reasonable, liberal, secular, and fairly moderate guy. I guess he believed Windows Metro was a good idea... :)

Obviously we hear the stories about Musk, Zuck, Ellison etc. but I think there are plenty of grounded billionaires out there.

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#127

Post by NonHyloMorph »

uiuihu wrote: post #47

If you're not an extremist at this point relative to everyone else, the vast majority of whom have beliefs that are incompatible with the existence of other life on this planet, then you're probably a moron.

I asked a question, and it's not a rhetorical one, even though it's formulation indicates that I have some serious doubts that there is a factual answer - it's called capital-ism for a reason.

edited for typo

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#128

Post by inigyou »

121789 wrote: post #109
TrackerFF wrote: post #106

For the past few years, I've seen a dozen of friends or acquaintances turn "ideologically crazy", and they can be roughly grouped into: A) Onset of schizophrenia or other serious mental illness, followed by psychosis. This is actually the most common I've seen. But it is also the easiest to spot. B) Some crisis event in life, followed by finding / joining a community. Some were hit hard by this during COVID. I've yet…

Don’t agree actually. Have seen many busy working professionals fall into “extremism” and it’s pretty much always the same. They have a few issues they are firm on and align with one party, they don’t like the other side because of this, then they only hang out with people aligned with their views and only consume media aligned with their views. Quickly turns into lunatic talking points, and I’ve seen it happen to bo…

I've only seen this with the right. Can you describe what it's like when it's left?

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#129

Post by inigyou »

miyoji wrote: post #34
gibbitz wrote: post #7

I think the problem here is that we have a bias for those who agree with us that outweighs our patience in searching for oppositional opinions that are well founded. From a liberal bubble it is quite hard to find conservative viewpoints that aren't based on unobserved apriori belief or strawman arguments. It feels like being a heavyweight surrounded by lightweights and it makes me feel like I need a better sparring p…

My favorite intellectual conservative sparring partner became a progressive.

[flagged]

Re: The main way I've seen people turn ideologically crazy (2025)

#130

Post by inigyou »

zahlman wrote: post #2

> Don't update positively on your extremist beliefs whenever you hear a bad argument against them Two problems: 1. There are beliefs people hold approximately as strongly as they hold "the Sun will rise tomorrow", so "updating" is kinda irrelevant. 2. How many people actually think any of their beliefs are "extremist"? And if they don't, they won't consider the warning to apply. And after digging in further: 3. Many…

I am an extremist - I use GrapheneOS and I think the government shouldn't kill people for being gay.
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